Public Hearing - February 8, 2024

                                                                       1

 1  BEFORE THE NEW YORK STATE SENATE FINANCE
    AND ASSEMBLY WAYS AND MEANS COMMITTEES
 2  ----------------------------------------------------

 3          JOINT LEGISLATIVE HEARING

 4             In the Matter of the
          2024-2025 EXECUTIVE BUDGET ON
 5               HIGHER EDUCATION
    
 6  ----------------------------------------------------

 7                              Hearing Room B 
                                Legislative Office Building 
 8                              Albany, New York 
    
 9                              February 8, 2024
                                9:39 a.m.
10  

11  PRESIDING:

12            Senator Liz Krueger
              Chair, Senate Finance Committee
13  
              Assemblywoman Helene Weinstein
14            Chair, Assembly Ways & Means Committee
    
15  PRESENT:

16            Assemblyman Edward P. Ra 
              Assembly Ways & Means Committee (RM)
17  
              Senator Thomas F. O'Mara
18            Senate Finance Committee (RM)
    
19            Assemblywoman Patricia Fahy
              Chair, Assembly Higher Education Committee
20  
              Senator Toby Stavisky
21            Chair, Senate Higher Education Committee
    
22            Senator John C. Liu
    
23            Assemblyman Robert Smullen
    
24            Senator Gustavo Rivera

                                                                   2

 1  2024-2025 Executive Budget
    Higher Education 
 2  2-8-24
    
 3  PRESENT:  (Continued)
    
 4            Assemblywoman Jo Anne Simon 
    
 5            Assemblywoman Alicia Hyndman 
    
 6            Assemblyman Harvey Epstein
    
 7            Senator Robert Jackson
    
 8            Senator Lea Webb 
    
 9            Assemblywoman Monique Chandler-Waterman
    
10            Assemblywoman Monica P. Wallace
    
11            Senator Dean Murray
    
12            Assemblywoman Phara Souffrant Forrest
    
13            Senator Iwen Chu
    
14            Assemblyman Scott Gray
    
15            Assemblywoman Monica P. Wallace
    
16            Senator Peter Oberacker
    
17            Assemblyman Erik M. Dilan
    
18            Assemblywoman Chris Eachus
    
19            Assemblywoman Karen McMahon
    
20            Assemblywoman Sarah Clark
    
21            Assemblyman Ed Flood
    
22  
    
23

24


                                                                   3

 1  2024-2025 Executive Budget
    Higher Education 
 2  2-8-24
    
 3  
    
 4                     LIST OF SPEAKERS
    
 5                                        STATEMENT  QUESTIONS
    
 6  Dr. John B. King, Jr.
    Chancellor                           
 7  State University of New York            
         -and-
 8  Félix V. Matos Rodríguez
    Chancellor 
 9  City University of New York             10        29
    
10  Dr. Guillermo Linares
    President 
11  NYS Higher Education
     Services Corporation
12   (HESC)                                159       168
    
13  Dr. James Davis
    President
14  Professional Staff Congress/CUNY
         -and-
15  Dr. Frederick E. Kowal 
    President
16  United University Professions
         -and-
17  Allen Williams 
    President
18  New York Community College 
     Trustees 
19       -and-
    Andrew Sako
20  President 
    Faculty Federation
21   of Erie Community College             209       221
    
22  
    
23

24


                                                                   4

 1  2024-2025 Executive Budget
    Higher Education 
 2  2-8-24
    
 3                     LIST OF SPEAKERS, Cont. 
    
 4                                       STATEMENT  QUESTIONS
    
 5  James McCartney
    Director
 6  NYS University Police Lieutenants 
     Benevolent Association
 7  President
    PBA of New York State                  
 8       -and-
    Bradley Hershenson 
 9  Business Agent 
    CWA 1104-Graduate Student 
10   Employees Union (GSEU)
         -and-
11  Donna Stelling-Gurnett
    President 
12  Association of Private 
     Colleges (APC)                        
13       -and-
    Jennifer Tassler
14  VP for Government Relations and
     Strategic Affairs
15  New York State Academic Dental
     Centers (NYSADC)
16       -and-
    Lola W. Brabham
17  President
    Commission on Independent 
18   Colleges and Universities 
     (CICU)                                  273       290
19  
    
20  
    
21  
    
22  
    
23  

24


                                                                   5

 1  2024-2025 Executive Budget
    Higher Education 
 2  2-8-24
    
 3                     LIST OF SPEAKERS, Cont. 
    
 4                                       STATEMENT  QUESTIONS
    
 5  Arturo Soto
    Secretary
 6  CUNY Coalition for Students
     with Disabilities (CCSD)
 7       -and-
    Blair Horner
 8  Executive Director
    New York Public Interest 
 9   Research Group (NYPIRG)
         -and-
10  Deidra Nesbeth
    Director
11  Fostering Youth Success Alliance
         -and-
12  Alexandra Sisti
    Founding Member 
13  District 1 Youth Advisory Board
         -and-
14  Dr. Marcy Ferdschneider
    Assistant Vice President,
15   Student Health on Haven
    Columbia University
16       -and-
    Samuel Rowser
17  Executive Director
    On Point for College                   325       346
18  

19

20

21

22

23

24


                                                                   6

 1                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Welcome.  This 

 2           is the budget hearing on Higher Education.  

 3                  Good morning.  I am Helene Weinstein, 

 4           chair of the New York State Assembly's Ways 

 5           and Means Committee and cochair of today's 

 6           hearing.  

 7                  Today we begin the 10th in a series of 

 8           hearings conducted by the joint fiscal 

 9           committees of the Legislature regarding the 

10           Governor's proposed budget for fiscal year 

11           2024-'25.  And the hearings are conducted 

12           pursuant to the New York State Constitution 

13           and the Legislative Law.

14                  Today the Assembly Ways and Means 

15           Committee and the Senate Finance Committee 

16           will hear testimony concerning the Governor's 

17           proposed budget for higher education.

18                  I'll introduce the members from the 

19           Assembly.  After that my cochair, 

20           Senator Krueger, will introduce the members 

21           from the Senate, and then our ranking members 

22           will introduce the members of their 

23           conference.

24                  So, so far from the Assembly we have 


                                                                   7

 1           Assemblywoman Fahy, who is the chair of our 

 2           Higher Ed Committee.  We have Assemblymember 

 3           Chandler-Waterman, Assemblymember Clark, 

 4           Assemblymember Dilan, Assemblymember Eachus, 

 5           Assemblymember Epstein.  And I am sure there 

 6           will be some other members who will be 

 7           joining us.

 8                  Senator Krueger, if you'd like to 

 9           introduce your colleagues.

10                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

11           much.  

12                  We've been joined by Higher Ed Chair 

13           Toby Stavisky, John Liu, Lea Webb, Robert 

14           Jackson, Iwen Chu, Gustavo Rivera.

15                  And my Republican ranker, Tom O'Mara, 

16           is going to update us with his members.

17                  SENATOR O'MARA:  Thank you, 

18           Chairwoman.  

19                  On our side we're joined by 

20           Senator Peter Oberacker this morning.

21                  Good morning.

22                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Good morning.  

23                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Assemblyman Ra, 

24           our ranker on Ways and Means, will introduce 


                                                                   8

 1           his colleagues.

 2                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Thank you.  

 3                  Good morning.  We're joined by 

 4           Assemblymember Smullen, our ranking member on 

 5           the Higher Education Committee, as well as 

 6           Assemblymembers Gray and Flood.

 7                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

 8                  So just a little bit of the ground 

 9           rules for today.  The time limits:  The 

10           governmental witnesses will have 10 minutes 

11           to present their testimony.  The 

12           nongovernmental witnesses who are on the 

13           schedule will have three minutes to present 

14           their testimony.  

15                  And we just encourage everyone to not 

16           read their testimony, because sometimes 

17           that -- particularly the nongovernmental 

18           witnesses, that three minutes comes right 

19           after you've said hello, given us greetings.  

20           Just get to the substance of what you'd like 

21           us to hear.

22                  As for the legislators, the chairs of 

23           the committees, the two Higher Ed chairs, 

24           today will each have 10 minutes and a second 


                                                                   9

 1           round of three minutes if desired.  And 

 2           again, the time frame is for both the 

 3           question and please leave time for the 

 4           witnesses to answer.

 5                  Ranking members of the two committees 

 6           will get five minutes each to ask questions 

 7           and hear the answers.  And all other members 

 8           of the relevant -- of the Higher Ed Committee 

 9           or Ways and Means will have three minutes 

10           each.

11                  And just to the legislators, please 

12           let us know as soon as possible if you want 

13           to be on the list to ask a question.  And if 

14           you text me or Senator Krueger and we don't 

15           respond, don't assume you're on the list.  We 

16           had some issues yesterday.

17                  I would also just ask people to note 

18           we have time clocks all over the hearing 

19           room.  And as I mentioned, that they are both 

20           for the question and the answer.  

21                  And I'm delighted now to call upon the 

22           first two witnesses.  First, John King, 

23           chancellor of the State University of 

24           New York.  Last year you were interim 


                                                                   10

 1           chancellor, so we're happy that you're here 

 2           in your official position as chancellor.  

 3                  And after Chancellor King speaks, we 

 4           have the chancellor of the City University of 

 5           New York, Félix Matos Rodríguez.  

 6                  So we would ask, Chancellor King, if 

 7           you could start.  We'll then go to 

 8           Chancellor Rodríguez, and then we will have 

 9           I'm sure questions from the panel.

10                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Good morning, 

11           Chairs Krueger, Weinstein, Stavisky and Fahy 

12           and Ranking Members O'Mara, Ra and Smullen.  

13           Appreciate the opportunity to join you today 

14           alongside my friend and colleague Chancellor 

15           Matos Rodríguez.  

16                  There are no greater testaments to the 

17           power of public higher education than SUNY 

18           and CUNY, and we owe an incredible debt of 

19           gratitude to the Senators and Assemblymembers 

20           in this room, to your colleagues, and to 

21           Governor Kathy Hochul.  

22                  Since returning to New York to assume 

23           this role just over a year ago, I've 

24           prioritized visiting each of our 64 campuses, 


                                                                   11

 1           and I'm grateful to many of you for joining 

 2           those visits.  I come before you today filled 

 3           with tremendous pride in our system and, most 

 4           importantly, in the students we are 

 5           privileged to serve, and the faculty and 

 6           staff making extraordinary life-changing 

 7           contributions on our campuses every day.

 8                  SUNY is on the move, with remarkable 

 9           progress on multiple fronts.  We are making 

10           it clear that there is a place at SUNY for 

11           every New Yorker.  SUNY campuses are climbing 

12           in national rankings and, even more 

13           importantly, being recognized as powerhouses 

14           of social mobility.  And SUNY continues to 

15           sit at the heart of New York State's strategy 

16           for economic development with our education 

17           and training programs and cutting-edge 

18           research boosting diverse areas of emerging 

19           commerce.

20                  For the first time in a decade, SUNY 

21           enrollment is up, and it is up across every 

22           sector of our system.  While the overall 

23           enrollment gain from fall '22 to fall '23 was 

24           1.1 percent, we saw a much larger 4.3 percent 


                                                                   12

 1           increase in first-time undergraduate 

 2           enrollment, a leading indicator of future 

 3           growth.  

 4                  Our gains in enrollment fuel and are 

 5           in turn fueled by the four pillars the SUNY 

 6           Board of Trustees and I have established:  

 7           Student success, research and scholarship, 

 8           diversity, equity and inclusion, and economic 

 9           development and upward mobility.  SUNY is 

10           committed to leading the nation in access and 

11           degree completion.  College affordability is 

12           a vital component of student success, and I'm 

13           proud of our extraordinary value, with 

14           52 percent of in-state undergraduates 

15           attending SUNY tuition-free.

16                  SUNY is making strides toward meeting 

17           Governor Hochul's charge to double research.  

18           We are laying the groundwork to establish 

19           New York's leadership in AI, biotech, 

20           semiconductor packaging and sustainability 

21           and renewable energy, among so many other 

22           areas.  

23                  While some states seek to turn back 

24           the clock on diversity, SUNY and New York are 


                                                                   13

 1           committed to doing even more.  We are 

 2           strengthening recruitment pipelines for all 

 3           students from all backgrounds, and diverse 

 4           faculty and campus leadership.

 5                  In the wake of Hamas's horrific 

 6           terrorist attack on Israel on October 7th, I 

 7           also want to emphasize that SUNY is standing 

 8           up to racism, xenophobia, antisemitism, 

 9           Islamophobia, and other forms of hate.  As 

10           always, the safety of our students, faculty 

11           and staff is paramount.  I'd be happy to 

12           answer questions about the steps we are 

13           taking.

14                  And SUNY is proudly working with 

15           government and employer partners to make 

16           targeted investments in workforce development 

17           in high-demand sectors and expanding 

18           internship opportunities across SUNY, with 

19           the goal to ultimately reach every SUNY 

20           student.

21                  I also want to note SUNY's commitment 

22           to excellence in operational and fiscal 

23           stewardship, including the difficult 

24           decisions necessary to ensure fiscal health.  


                                                                   14

 1                  Let me now turn to the ways in which 

 2           SUNY students, faculty, staff and the broader 

 3           SUNY community are benefiting from the 

 4           investments made by the Executive and 

 5           Legislature in last year's budget, which 

 6           provided the largest operating aid increase 

 7           for SUNY in more than 20 years.

 8                  The '23-'24 enacted budget included 

 9           $163 million in increased direct state 

10           support for our state-operated campuses, with 

11           commitments in the State Financial Plan of an 

12           additional $54 million in each of the next 

13           two fiscal years.  We remain incredibly 

14           grateful for these resources.

15                  SUNY prioritized ensuring that all 

16           state-operated campuses received a 

17           significant funding increase, since every 

18           campus has both needs and growth 

19           opportunities.  We dedicated approximately 

20           $40 million to recurring annual state 

21           investment in student mental health, services 

22           for students with disabilities, addressing 

23           food insecurity, paid internships, and 

24           expanding research opportunities.


                                                                   15

 1                  Support from the Legislature also 

 2           provided $3 million towards eliminating fees 

 3           charged to graduate students who work on 

 4           campus.

 5                  In addition, the enacted budget 

 6           maintained the 100 percent community college 

 7           funding floor, preserving $79 million in 

 8           state support that would have otherwise been 

 9           lost.  

10                  And the $75 million SUNY 

11           Transformation Fund is already making an 

12           extraordinary difference.  Most notably, 

13           25 campuses are adopting ASAP and ACE, the 

14           nation's leading models for increasing 

15           student completion.  These initiatives were 

16           pioneered at CUNY and proven through 

17           randomized controlled trials.  

18                  Finally, we're grateful for the 

19           continued investment in SUNY's capital needs.  

20           This includes approximately $1.6 billion in 

21           the '23-'24 budget, which also recognized the 

22           importance of debt service relief for our 

23           hospitals.  

24                  These investments in SUNY pay off.  


                                                                   16

 1           For every dollar of state funding invested in 

 2           SUNY, the state enjoys nearly $9 in economic 

 3           return.

 4                  Let me now turn to Governor Hochul's 

 5           '24-'25 Executive Budget, which makes crucial 

 6           investments in SUNY's future.  Among the many 

 7           highlights are increased and ongoing 

 8           operating support for all SUNY campuses.  The 

 9           Executive Budget fulfills the state's 

10           commitment to an additional $54 million 

11           increase in operating funds for 

12           state-operated campuses.  In addition, the 

13           Executive Budget maintains the 100 percent 

14           community college funding floor, avoiding 

15           $85 million in lost direct state tax support.

16                  Capital investment.  The Executive 

17           Budget invests 650 million to address SUNY's 

18           capital needs, including critical maintenance 

19           and new capital investment.  

20                  Empire AI.  Governor Hochul's 

21           Empire AI initiative will position New York 

22           as a national leader in AI research and 

23           economic development.  Our four university 

24           centers will harness the power of AI to 


                                                                   17

 1           expand research through this consortium, and 

 2           we are especially grateful that UB has been 

 3           selected as the host site.

 4                  A stronger SUNY Downstate.  Downstate 

 5           Health Sciences University is a gem of the 

 6           SUNY system.  However, Downstate's main 

 7           hospital building has weathered years of 

 8           financial instability and fallen into 

 9           disrepair.  As part of a plan for a stronger 

10           Downstate, I'm deeply grateful for the 

11           Governor's willingness to make a $300 million 

12           capital investment at SUNY Downstate to cover 

13           the hospital's substantial deficits during 

14           the transition and to provide more modest 

15           operating support going forward.  

16                  We are working with the community to 

17           pursue a path that will advance the future of 

18           Downstate's unique role in preparing 

19           excellent, diverse healthcare professionals; 

20           preserve inpatient services to be performed 

21           by SUNY Downstate staff in partnership with 

22           other hospitals; sustain and expand 

23           outpatient services to fill healthcare gaps; 

24           and address the significant health 


                                                                   18

 1           disparities facing New Yorkers.

 2                  Universal FAFSA completion.  New 

 3           Yorkers leave $200 million per year in 

 4           federal financial aid on the table by not 

 5           completing the FAFSA.  And state after state 

 6           has shown that making the FAFSA universal 

 7           expands college access.  Governor Hochul's 

 8           plan envisions every high school senior 

 9           either completing the FAFSA, the New York 

10           State DREAM Act application, or signing a 

11           waiver passing on the opportunity to apply.  

12           All students will still be able to graduate.

13                  SUNY Service Corps.  The Executive 

14           Budget provides $2.75 million for SUNY to 

15           launch the Empire State Service Corps, in 

16           partnership with Lieutenant Governor Delgado.  

17           This program, modeled after a similar effort 

18           in California, will allow hundreds of SUNY 

19           students to engage with local community-based 

20           organizations and deepen their learning in 

21           the process.

22                  SUNY is appreciative for such a strong 

23           and forward-looking Executive Budget.

24                  Thank you again for your steadfast 


                                                                   19

 1           support for SUNY, your commitment to public 

 2           higher education, and the opportunity to join 

 3           you today.  I look forward to working 

 4           together toward the '24-'25 enacted budget 

 5           and to invest in the future of SUNY's 

 6           students and the communities we are 

 7           privileged to serve.

 8                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you, 

 9           Chancellor.

10                  Now, Chancellor Rodríguez.

11                  CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:  Good 

12           morning, Chairs Krueger, Weinstein, Stavisky 

13           and Fahy, distinguished members of the 

14           Assembly and the Senate finance committees, 

15           staff, guests, and my good friend and partner 

16           Chancellor King.  I am Félix Matos Rodríguez, 

17           or whatever is left of him.  Proud to serve 

18           as the chancellor of the City University of 

19           New York.  

20                  I want to thank Governor Hochul and 

21           you in the State Senate and Assembly for your 

22           continued commitment to public higher 

23           education.  Your support over the past two 

24           years has been critical to the important 


                                                                   20

 1           contributions CUNY has made to New York's 

 2           rebound from the pandemic.  

 3                  Now CUNY's building a strategy to make 

 4           our university even more impactful as an 

 5           agent of change and one of the state's most 

 6           potent economic engines.  Last June we 

 7           unveiled an ambitious strategic roadmap 

 8           called "CUNY Lifting New York," a detailed 

 9           plan for bolstering the already profound 

10           impact our university makes in the city, 

11           region and state.  I invite you to review it 

12           if you haven't done so; I believe you have 

13           copies of the roadmap on your desk in front 

14           of you.

15                  CUNY is integral to the lifeblood of 

16           New York City.  More than 80 percent of our 

17           50,000 annual graduates stay in the city, 

18           diversifying every sector of the city's 

19           workforce and contributing to every aspect of 

20           its economic and civic life.  CUNY alumni in 

21           New York account for about 70 billion in 

22           annual earnings.  That is close to 5 percent 

23           of the state's GDP.  Each taxpayer dollar 

24           invested in CUNY returns at least $15 to 


                                                                   21

 1           New York State.  To quote a Daily News 

 2           editorial last spring, "Every dollar in is a 

 3           dollar that is magnified and keeps New York's 

 4           economy humming along."

 5                  Today I want to highlight a few areas 

 6           of recent success that are already advancing 

 7           our "CUNY Lifting New York" strategy.  

 8                  One, we continue to transform how we 

 9           prepare students for careers and creating 

10           direct and sustainable pipelines to 

11           employers.  Over the last year, we launched a 

12           $1.8 million initiative to get more CUNY 

13           students into paid internships that are 

14           embedded in their degree programs, and we 

15           provided internship opportunities to 

16           4,000 students.  

17                  We also added a centralized point of 

18           contact to help more than 1,000 private- 

19           sector employers tap into the tremendous pool 

20           of talent on our campuses.  And our CUNY 

21           Inclusive Economy initiative is expected to 

22           engage an additional 2,700 students this 

23           academic year.  

24                  We are also aggressively raising 


                                                                   22

 1           external funds to bolster our fast-growing 

 2           research enterprise and advance our 

 3           programmatic initiatives.  Last year, CUNY 

 4           researchers secured a record external funding 

 5           of $638 million, and we are on track this 

 6           year to surpass that record.  

 7                  Last month, we received the 

 8           university's largest philanthropic donation 

 9           ever, a $75 million gift from the Simons 

10           Foundation.  The gift earmarks $50 million to 

11           recruit 25 cutting-edge computational science 

12           faculty and $25 million to participate in 

13           Governor Hochul's proposed Empire AI project. 

14           This work is interconnected to our efforts to 

15           leverage advances in AI in our ongoing 

16           student success network.  One example of our 

17           partnership is the one with the National 

18           Institute for Student Success.  They're 

19           conducting an assessment, and their 

20           assessment will help us develop a new 

21           generation of AI-powered programs that reduce 

22           obstacles to graduation for many students 

23           systemwide.  

24                  Number three is our wide-ranging 


                                                                   23

 1           program of capital projects.  Last week, for 

 2           example, we opened a $95 million nursing 

 3           facility at Lehman College in the Bronx.  

 4           Funded primarily by the state, it's a 

 5           building that will offer high-quality 

 6           healthcare education to underserved 

 7           populations and help to address our state's 

 8           increasingly severe nursing shortage.  

 9                  CUNY graduates an average of 

10           1,800 nurses annually, representing about 

11           half of the nurses entering New York City's 

12           workforce each year.  

13                  A fourth area that I want to highlight 

14           is CUNY's actions to combat hate, 

15           antisemitism and Islamophobia, and be 

16           proactive in creating campus communities 

17           built on trust, understanding and inclusion. 

18           Over the past year we have taken many steps 

19           to combat antisemitism and other forms of 

20           bigotry, and I'm happy to take your questions 

21           on that and many of them are outlined in our 

22           larger testimony.  

23                  Lastly, we are fixing long-term flaws 

24           in our transfer system.  For years many 


                                                                   24

 1           associate-degree students have lost credits 

 2           toward their major when they transfer.  By 

 3           the end of next year, students will be able 

 4           to transfer without losing credits earned in 

 5           their major.  We estimate that the improved 

 6           process will save students who transfer, on 

 7           average, four excess credits and about $1,220 

 8           in tuition by the time they graduate.  That's 

 9           money in their pocket or that's money that 

10           the state is saving in TAP.  

11                  This is just a sampling of our recent 

12           successes and efforts, and they reflect our 

13           aspirations and plans for the coming years. 

14           Those plans are always -- and now more than 

15           ever -- dependent on the sustained support of 

16           our elected leaders here in Albany.  So let 

17           me turn to the Governor's Executive Budget.  

18                  We are encouraged by the additional 

19           operating and capital funding in the 

20           Executive Budget.  The Executive Budget 

21           builds on the additional funding for CUNY 

22           that Governor Hochul, you, and your 

23           colleagues appropriated over the last two 

24           years.  


                                                                   25

 1                  For CUNY's operating budget, there is 

 2           an increase of $36 million in operating 

 3           support for our senior colleges, which will 

 4           help cover fixed cost increases and enable us 

 5           to continue to build on the key initiatives 

 6           that remain central to CUNY's mission.  

 7                  The Executive Budget also includes an 

 8           increase of $69.5 million for fringe 

 9           benefits.  And the Executive Budget maintains 

10           the community college funding floor at 100 

11           percent of the previous year's funding, which 

12           is crucial to avoiding a significant 

13           reduction in funding for our community 

14           colleges.  

15                  For CUNY's capital budget, the 

16           Executive Budget provides critical 

17           infrastructure investments to modernize our 

18           25 campuses with an allocation of 

19           $441 million.  This support will enable us to 

20           maintain our campuses in a state of good 

21           repair and make strategic investments in new 

22           facilities.  

23                  As some of you are aware, we've also 

24           been facing a structural deficit since 2020 


                                                                   26

 1           caused by many factors, including enrollment 

 2           declines that accelerated with the pandemic 

 3           and increased costs in mandatory needs that 

 4           the university had to absorb.  We have 

 5           enacted a strategy to address the deficit 

 6           which has included two rounds of 

 7           across-the-board savings targets, a hiring 

 8           freeze, and the creation of a Vacancy Review 

 9           Board to ensure that hires across the 

10           university are aligned with available 

11           resources.  

12                  These actions, coupled with the 

13           federal pandemic stimulus funds and -- thanks 

14           to you and Governor Hochul -- additional 

15           state operating aid, have reduced the deficit 

16           by almost half, from a high of $234 million 

17           in fiscal year 2022 to a projected 

18           $128 million for the end of this fiscal year.  

19                  While we have made great strides, 

20           there is still more work to be done.  We have 

21           devised additional expense reduction 

22           strategies at both the college level and 

23           university-wide.  This includes a more 

24           targeted approach for colleges that have 


                                                                   27

 1           shown signs of more fiscal distress, as well 

 2           as additional shared services in areas such 

 3           as IT, collections, and optimizing class 

 4           scheduling.  

 5                  On the revenue side, we are vigorously 

 6           continuing strategies to boost enrollment and 

 7           retention.  

 8                  The State Financial Plan released with 

 9           the Executive Budget states that CUNY is at 

10           various stages of negotiating contracts with 

11           its labor unions.  We are pleased that we 

12           reached a tentative agreement covering over 

13           10,000 employees represented by CUNY's 

14           classified staff unions, including District 

15           Council 37 and Teamsters Local 237. We are in 

16           negotiations with the Professional Staff 

17           Congress and are committed to bargaining in 

18           good faith to reach a fair settlement soon.  

19           These new labor contracts with our talented 

20           and dedicated faculty and staff are 

21           necessary, but are not without increased 

22           costs to the university.  

23                  Although we have seen a roughly 

24           2 percent increase in enrollment, we're still 


                                                                   28

 1           far below pre-pandemic levels.  We are down 

 2           about 40,000 students from the fall of 2019.  

 3           This has a major impact on our bottom line.  

 4           For example, CUNY lost $140 million in 

 5           tuition revenue between fiscal years 2020 and 

 6           2022 when enrollment dropped by 14 percent. 

 7           Like the state, city, and other public 

 8           entities like the MTA, we were aided by 

 9           federal stimulus funds that helped cover the 

10           lost revenue and pandemic-related expenses -- 

11           but these one-time funds will be exhausted by 

12           the end of the fiscal year.  

13                  With your continued support and that 

14           of the Governor, we will continue to make 

15           progress in our ambitious vision to transform 

16           CUNY into the nation's foremost 

17           student-centered urban university system.  

18           And I thank you all for your strong support 

19           and partnership, and look forward to your 

20           questions. 

21                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

22           Thank you, Chancellor.

23                  Before we begin some questions from 

24           colleagues, I'd like to just acknowledge that 


                                                                   29

 1           Alicia Hyndman and Jo Anne Simon, 

 2           Assemblymembers, joined us at the beginning 

 3           of this hearing.

 4                  And we will now go to the chair of the 

 5           Assembly's Higher Education Committee, 

 6           Pat Fahy, for questions.

 7                  And I just -- for members who haven't 

 8           been here before, and for witnesses, we have 

 9           a new microphone system.  So sometimes you 

10           have to press down hard to get that red ring 

11           to turn to green.

12                  Assemblywoman Fahy.

13                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  Thank you.  Thank 

14           you, Chair.  And again, great to see you back 

15           and have you with us today.  

16                  And thank you to both chancellors for 

17           very thorough testimony.  I have a whole host 

18           of questions, and at least for once I don't 

19           have three minutes, but we've got a lot of 

20           questions to get through.  

21                  First a couple of comments.  I want to 

22           start by saying thank you, thank you, to both 

23           of you.  While I didn't tour every campus, I 

24           toured a number of them, and I want you to 


                                                                   30

 1           know you, your staff and each of the 

 2           presidents of those colleges could not have 

 3           been more gracious, especially with some of 

 4           those last-minute tours that I was able to 

 5           do.  So very much appreciate that.  

 6                  I also appreciate a number of things 

 7           that you mentioned, which we'll try to get 

 8           back to momentarily.  But you both referred 

 9           to some of the Supreme Court setbacks last 

10           year, not long after I came into this 

11           position -- and really appreciated your 

12           responsiveness.  We all value the diversity 

13           on our campuses, and thank you for the 

14           continued momentum forward to increase that 

15           diversity despite the challenges that we have 

16           received.

17                  Funding.  I want to commend you both 

18           for issuing your fiscal reports that were 

19           requested last year in our final budget 

20           agreement.  There was the request that we get 

21           a fiscal report to really try to address 

22           these years of disinvestment and what it 

23           might take to turn those around.  Both of you 

24           have issued very, very sobering reports, and 


                                                                   31

 1           I am glad that it caught a lot of attention.  

 2                  I want to turn to both of you to talk 

 3           about -- while you addressed many of those 

 4           issues in your testimony, I think it's 

 5           important that you highlight what the 

 6           outyears will bring if we don't turn around 

 7           this disinvestment.  And with that I should 

 8           add I'm very proud of the work done by those 

 9           sitting here, as well as so many in the room 

10           here today, to finally provide substantial 

11           investments.  And I thank the Speaker as well 

12           as the Senate Leader on that as well.  

13                  So we turned it around last year.  You 

14           followed through.  Both of you have had 

15           enrollment increases for the first time in 

16           multiple years.  That has made a difference.  

17           I'm really hoping the FAFSA -- I commend the 

18           Governor for including that in the budget.  I 

19           hope that's going to also turn around the 

20           enrollment.  

21                  With that, I would like you to address 

22           if there's anything that you missed, again, 

23           from those very sobering reports, and we 

24           appreciate you getting those to us in a 


                                                                   32

 1           timely fashion.

 2                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Thanks so much, 

 3           Chair Fahy, and really appreciate your 

 4           leadership.  Grateful for the 163 million 

 5           last year.  Grateful that the Governor has 

 6           54 million in this year's budget.  

 7                  But as you look out over a 10-year 

 8           period, expenses will continue to grow.  

 9           Goods and services will cost more, and 

10           salaries will cost more.  We just completed a 

11           very strong contract with UUP; well-deserved 

12           raises.  But that will add $86 million in 

13           costs to the SUNY system this year. 

14                  And so in order for us to keep up with 

15           those rising costs we either need increases 

16           in direct state support or tuition increases.  

17           But we need a revenue source.  Otherwise, 

18           when you look out 10 years, we have a billion 

19           dollar deficit.  So modest investments over 

20           time will make the difference.

21                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  Thank you.

22                  Chancellor Matos Rodríguez.

23                  CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:  

24           Thank you.  And thank you for your 


                                                                   33

 1           leadership, and thank you, it's been great to 

 2           have you coming to visit our campuses and 

 3           have some of the hearings there.  So 

 4           appreciate that, the visits and the support.

 5                  Clearly we -- in the report that we 

 6           provided, we want to make sure that we 

 7           provided all of you with the best clear 

 8           roadmap of where we see the future in terms 

 9           of the investments that are needed for us to 

10           have the kind of excellence that you expect 

11           in our campuses.

12                  And in our case the cost of the 

13           collective bargaining -- which, you know, in 

14           our budget request we estimate that it will 

15           be around $184 million.  We have not settled 

16           the contract with our faculty like SUNY has, 

17           right, so that's a projection based on a 

18           contract that mirrors theirs, and we'll have 

19           to negotiate in good faith and see where ours 

20           end.  But we wanted to provide a projection 

21           for all of you.  

22                  But those are indispensable costs, to 

23           be able to build all the incredible 

24           programming that you're all proud of that we 


                                                                   34

 1           are proud of, that makes the university 

 2           distinct, is based on our human capital.  

 3           Which is 85 percent of our cost, right?  If 

 4           that is not benchmarked, if that is not 

 5           protected, right, the rest of the operation 

 6           will suffer.  And we have, I think, a vision 

 7           of cost cutting and discipline on our end, 

 8           but we need the additional investments from 

 9           all of you to make that path one that's 

10           sustainable.

11                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  Thank you.  I've 

12           got a few more questions I want to get to, 

13           but I want you to know that we have launched 

14           a "Turn on the TAP" campaign to really help 

15           you with those enrollment costs of increasing 

16           TAP, which also has really not kept pace with 

17           inflation at all, especially for the last 

18           25 years, and it's only a 50-year program.  

19           So we'll continue to work with you as well as 

20           on that very essential operating aid, as well 

21           as on the capital that both of you mentioned.  

22                  I would also be remiss if I didn't 

23           mention the internships.  Thank you for 

24           mentioning that.  The CUNY internships, I saw 


                                                                   35

 1           in your testimony you mentioned 4,000.  As 

 2           we've talked about, both of you, I've 

 3           mentioned a number of times I would hope that 

 4           we could get to a goal that every student, 

 5           every student before they graduate would have 

 6           an opportunity in an internship program, 

 7           because that will also help keep them in 

 8           New York even though all of your stats are 

 9           impressive.  We need to keep those students.  

10                  A couple of other questions.  Students 

11           can't learn if they don't feel safe.  It's a 

12           prerequisite for being able to focus on your 

13           academics.  So thank you, both of you, for 

14           addressing this extraordinary rise in hate 

15           and threats of violence on campus, 

16           particularly with antisemitism as well as 

17           racism and Islamophobia.  

18                  Chancellor King, you have 

19           particularly -- we've had many conversations 

20           about this.  Can you briefly mention the 

21           Title VI and how you have trained I know 

22           hundreds of staff, as well as each of your 

23           presidents, to be immediately responsive so 

24           that students can feel safe?  


                                                                   36

 1                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Look, student 

 2           safety is our top priority.  Title VI of the 

 3           Civil Rights Act requires that campuses 

 4           protect students from discrimination or 

 5           harassment on the basis of race or ethnicity.  

 6           And so we've been very clear that there's no 

 7           place for antisemitism at SUNY.  We've 

 8           provided training for our senior staff on 

 9           their responsibilities under Title VI.  We've 

10           also deployed our university police 

11           department to provide additional security for 

12           Shabbat services, for vigils and protests.  

13                  We want our campuses to be places 

14           where students feel safe and where they can 

15           engage in dialogue with real disagreements 

16           about policy matters.  But no student should 

17           ever feel unsafe, and we're working to ensure 

18           that.

19                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  Thank you.  I 

20           agree.  We need to maintain that civil 

21           discourse and encourage civil debate, which 

22           is what our campuses are supposed to be the 

23           centers of.

24                  Anything else on that, Chancellor?  


                                                                   37

 1                  CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:  I 

 2           would only echo what the chancellor has said.  

 3           On our end we've been very proactive on this 

 4           front.  We were very proactive because the 

 5           race hate and antisemitism preceded 

 6           October 7th.  October 7th just escalated that 

 7           to a different level.

 8                  So we've had a partnership with our 

 9           Hillels.  Several of them are doing a deeper 

10           dive into campus culture, we're part of that, 

11           with a survey of climate and review of 

12           policies.  So we're working with them to do 

13           that.

14                  We have some of the money from the 

15           state -- we've provided grants to our 

16           campuses so they have workshops, symposia, 

17           activities -- training, so we also get to 

18           better understanding.  And we've also worked 

19           very hard -- I mean, many of our campuses are 

20           urban campuses, so our campuses mix with the 

21           city.  So we work very closely with NYPD in 

22           providing safety and making sure that people 

23           that want to use their First Amendment do 

24           that in an appropriate way.


                                                                   38

 1                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  Yes.  Yes.  We 

 2           definitely want to encourage that.

 3                  Thank you.  I have three other things 

 4           that I want to get to very briefly, but I'm 

 5           going to start with community colleges.  But 

 6           we do want to talk about AI -- and I'm hoping 

 7           not to do it in another 10 minutes -- and 

 8           certainly the SUNY Downstate hospital, which 

 9           has lots of concerns there.  Thank you for 

10           mentioning it, Chancellor King.  

11                  Can we briefly talk about the 

12           community colleges?  And the colleges -- I 

13           know the SUNY colleges have talked about an 

14           additional $97 million on top of the 

15           100 percent floor.  We know they are key to 

16           growing AI.  I think all of us want to make 

17           this the epicenter of the country, if not the 

18           world, for AI investments.  Can you talk 

19           about community colleges?  

20                  And certainly, Chancellor Matos 

21           Rodríguez, I know your community colleges 

22           have also struggled at times, but this is key 

23           to turning it around.  And we've got 30 

24           seconds.  Thank you.


                                                                   39

 1                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Community 

 2           colleges are a vital engine for workforce 

 3           development.  We're really grateful for the 

 4           TAP for non-credit workforce programs that is 

 5           already making a big difference on campuses.  

 6                  The community college presidents have 

 7           a proposal for $97 million to allow them to 

 8           do more high-demand workforce training.  

 9           Think about Onondaga Community College and 

10           preparing the workforce for Micron.  That's 

11           going to be huge for Central New York.

12                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  Great point.  

13           Thank you.  

14                  Chancellor Rodríguez.

15                  CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:  

16           Well, on our end too, you know, we've -- our 

17           community colleges have suffered from the 

18           budget cuts on the city side, right.  And we 

19           are doing advocacy to make sure that we 

20           restore that --

21                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  Thank you.

22                  CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:  -- 

23           along with enrollment.

24                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.


                                                                   40

 1                  CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:  But 

 2           they're a key part of our pipeline also to 

 3           the four-year schools.

 4                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you, 

 5           Chancellor.

 6                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  Thank you, Chair.

 7                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  And this 

 8           actually might be a good time to mention that 

 9           there may, as the day goes on, be questions 

10           that you will not have enough time to fully 

11           answer.  So please, after the hearing, send 

12           us in writing, to Senator Krueger and myself, 

13           the responses and we'll make sure to share 

14           with all of our colleagues.  

15                  Before we go to the Senate, I just 

16           wanted to acknowledge we've been joined by 

17           Assemblywoman Wallace.  

18                  And we go to the Senate.

19                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

20                  We go to the chair, Senator Toby 

21           Stavisky.

22                  SENATOR O'MARA:  I would just like to 

23           add that we've been joined by Senator Dean 

24           Murray on our side.  Thank you.


                                                                   41

 1                  I'm sorry.  

 2                  (Mic problem; off the record.)

 3                  SENATOR STAVISKY:  Thank you both for 

 4           your testimony.  

 5                  Before I get to other subjects, let me 

 6           address one issue that I think you started to 

 7           address, and I want to just pick up on that.  

 8           And that involves the issue of Downstate, the 

 9           medical school for downstate students.  I was 

10           looking at last year's testimony, and I asked 

11           you -- you had spoken last year about the 19 

12           distressed SUNY hospitals.  And this question 

13           is obviously for Chancellor King.  

14                  And then I asked you about Downstate, 

15           because it wasn't mentioned.  And there have 

16           been problems with Downstate going back to 

17           10 or 15 years, if not longer.  And you had 

18           talked -- it was sort of a generic answer 

19           about the importance of Downstate, which I 

20           know you recognize.  But now it's sort of 

21           being dealt with at the last minute.

22                  When did discussions on the future of 

23           Downstate begin?  Approximately.

24                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Well, this is, 


                                                                   42

 1           as you know, a 15-, 20-year conversation 

 2           about the challenges at Downstate.  Last 

 3           session we had a budget ask around a 

 4           significant help for the deficit at 

 5           Downstate.  We didn't get that.  We did get 

 6           some debt relief, thanks to your leadership, 

 7           which we appreciate.  

 8                  But we came into this year knowing 

 9           that we would face a $100 million deficit.  

10           We will run out of cash to continue to 

11           operate by the summer.  And so once we didn't 

12           get additional funding in last year's enacted 

13           budget, we began conversations with the 

14           chamber about strategies for how to address 

15           the deficit and how to address the 

16           significant capital needs.  

17                  As you know, there's been a history of 

18           disinvestment, and capital is deteriorating, 

19           the building has flooding regularly, 

20           temperature-control issues, and is at real 

21           risk of catastrophic failure and harm to 

22           patients and staff.

23                  And in our conversations with the 

24           Governor, the Governor was willing to make an 


                                                                   43

 1           extraordinary investment, 300 million in 

 2           capital, covering the deficits for two years, 

 3           which is another $200 million, as well as 

 4           ongoing operating support.

 5                  SENATOR STAVISKY:  Yeah, I get that 

 6           part.  But did you discuss, for example, the 

 7           issues with the administration at Downstate?  

 8           You mentioned the Executive.

 9                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  So there's an 

10           ongoing conversation with leadership at 

11           Downstate.  

12                  It's really important to distinguish 

13           as well between Downstate Health Sciences 

14           University and the hospital.  And the 

15           challenges that have driven our 

16           Transformation Plan for the hospital are 

17           about saving the hospital.  The Health 

18           Sciences University is, as you know, 

19           providing a critical service for the state in 

20           terms of the diverse healthcare workforce.

21                  SENATOR STAVISKY:  So have you 

22           discussed this, for example, with the 

23           president of Downstate or the dean?

24                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  With 


                                                                   44

 1           President Riley?

 2                  SENATOR STAVISKY:  With 

 3           President Riley.

 4                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Yeah, we've had 

 5           an ongoing discussion since I started as 

 6           chancellor in January.

 7                  SENATOR STAVISKY:  Since you started.  

 8           Did that occur down at Downstate, or was that 

 9           on Zoom or -- 

10                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  I visited 

11           Downstate very early on.  I've been back to 

12           Downstate.  I was very pleased --

13                  SENATOR STAVISKY:  Was that with 

14           Dr. Riley?  

15                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Yeah.  And was 

16           very pleased to be back at downstate this 

17           summer for the Premed EOP program which we're 

18           very grateful for --

19                  SENATOR STAVISKY:  So you and he 

20           would -- I don't mean to interrupt, but I'm 

21           watching the clock.

22                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Yes.  Yeah.

23                  SENATOR STAVISKY:  You and he were 

24           down there at Downstate this summer 


                                                                   45

 1           discussing the issue.

 2                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  We've had 

 3           multiple conversations, again, since I began 

 4           in January.  At Downstate, in Albany, on the 

 5           phone.  Our senior vice chancellor for health 

 6           and hospitals has been very engaged with 

 7           Downstate trying to figure out a path to save 

 8           the hospital.

 9                  SENATOR STAVISKY:   My question, then, 

10           is I found out about this the Monday -- 

11           Martin Luther King Day, when you called me, 

12           the day before the Governor released her 

13           budget.  I heard during the Health Department 

14           hearing that the commissioner of Health read 

15           about it in the newspaper.

16                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Again, we're 

17           very fortunate the Governor included in the 

18           Executive Budget the funding that would 

19           provide capital support to save the hospital, 

20           to allow us to build a new $300 million 

21           outpatient facility --

22                  SENATOR STAVISKY:  All right.  But to 

23           ask us -- I'm questioning how we can get 

24           additional information during this 


                                                                   46

 1           time frame.  

 2                  Let me ask you a couple of other 

 3           questions --

 4                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Sure.

 5                  SENATOR STAVISKY:  -- real quick, 

 6           because I do want to get on to other 

 7           subjects.  But this, I must tell you, is of 

 8           great, great concern to me, quite frankly, as 

 9           chair of the committee, but also to the 

10           legislators who represent the Central 

11           Brooklyn area -- and even most importantly, 

12           to the people who use this facility, these 

13           facilities, for their healthcare, as 

14           healthcare providers.

15                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Look, I 

16           understand, Senator.  And as we've discussed, 

17           you know, this is the community I grew up in.  

18           It's a healthcare community I know well.  My 

19           earliest memory of a hospital is when I was 

20           at Kings County with my mom when she had a 

21           heart attack, passed away when I was eight.  

22           So I know the community needs very well.  I 

23           appreciate folks' frustration with the 

24           history of disinvestment in Central Brooklyn.  


                                                                   47

 1                  And my goal here is to strengthen the 

 2           Health Sciences University and to preserve 

 3           and expand the health services for the 

 4           community.

 5                  SENATOR STAVISKY:  So to accomplish 

 6           this you've outlined some general actions 

 7           that we ought to take.  And we're not 

 8           disagreeing in terms of the needs.

 9                  Do you need a CON, a Certificate of 

10           Need, from the Health Department, for 

11           example?

12                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  We're working 

13           through now with the staff at Downstate, as 

14           well as with Health + Hospitals, as well as 

15           with DOH, the details of the process that 

16           would need to take place in the coming weeks 

17           and months.  

18                  It's important to say that as part of 

19           this plan, in addition to building a new 

20           outpatient facility, the bulk of the 

21           inpatient services would move across the 

22           state to a SUNY Downstate dedicated space 

23           within Kings County.

24                  The staff, the vast majority would go 


                                                                   48

 1           over to that SUNY Downstate dedicated space, 

 2           and they would continue to provide services 

 3           as SUNY Downstate employees in a SUNY 

 4           Downstate identified area.  But the capital 

 5           conditions at Kings County are significantly 

 6           superior to the conditions at Downstate.

 7                  SENATOR STAVISKY:  I asked about the 

 8           CON.  Is there going to be an application for 

 9           that or not?  

10                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Again, those 

11           are -- that's a process we are working 

12           through with the staff at Downstate, with 

13           Health + Hospitals, and with the Department 

14           of Health over the coming weeks and months.

15                  SENATOR STAVISKY:  Are you planning to 

16           request a Health Equity Impact Assessment 

17           statement?  And if so, who would provide 

18           that?  

19                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Again, that's a 

20           determination that will be made in the coming 

21           weeks and months, along with Health + 

22           Hospitals and the Department of Health.  

23                  I will say the Department of Health 

24           recently issued a health equity report for 


                                                                   49

 1           Central Brooklyn that emphasized many of the 

 2           areas that this plan addresses, the dire need 

 3           for additional urgent care, primary care, 

 4           preventive care.  And that's one of the 

 5           reasons we're so appreciative of the 

 6           Governor's willingness to invest $300 million 

 7           in the new outpatient facility.

 8                  SENATOR STAVISKY:  Did that DOH report 

 9           include capital, or was it just --

10                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  The DOH report 

11           was focused on --

12                  SENATOR STAVISKY:  I know that.  

13           That's why I asked what --

14                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  -- the 

15           conditions of services in the area, but it 

16           called for -- it highlighted, rather, the 

17           need for additional outpatient services, 

18           including the training of primary care 

19           doctors, which is a critical role that 

20           Downstate can play.

21                  SENATOR STAVISKY:  Can we assume that 

22           you're going to continue to work with the 

23           Department of Hospitals on these issues that 

24           are facing the Central Brooklyn community?  


                                                                   50

 1                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Absolutely.  

 2           With the Department of Health, with Health + 

 3           Hospitals, and with the community.  And just 

 4           yesterday we laid out a whole community 

 5           engagement process as we worked through 

 6           implementation of the principles that the 

 7           Governor established.

 8                  SENATOR STAVISKY:  Real quick, because 

 9           I have 39 seconds.  There have been rumors 

10           about CUNY -- about SUNY housing appearing on 

11           your campuses.  Can you -- 

12                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Yeah, the -- 

13           you know, we share the Governor's commitment 

14           to address the issue of housing.  It's 

15           certainly hampering the state's well-being 

16           and economic development.  

17                  The Governor asked state agencies to 

18           identify state properties where housing could 

19           be developed.  And in those conversations we 

20           shared a list of places where there's the 

21           possibility for development.  In particular, 

22           there are places where our campuses are very 

23           eager to have additional housing for staff.  

24           And so that's one of the things we're talking 


                                                                   51

 1           through with the chamber.

 2                  SENATOR STAVISKY:  Thank you, 

 3           Chancellor.  I'll ask additional questions, 

 4           follow-up questions later.  Thank you.  

 5                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

 6                  So we go now to the ranker on 

 7           Higher Education, Assemblyman Smullen, five 

 8           minutes.

 9                  ASSEMBLYMAN SMULLEN:  Thank you very 

10           much, Chair.

11                  This is really important testimony 

12           today because education for all New Yorkers 

13           is a critical thing, and public education is 

14           even more so.  It's a matter of fundamental 

15           equity for New Yorkers.  So I'd like to start 

16           actually with Chancellor King.  I know we've 

17           been talking about rural equity and what's 

18           fair for New Yorkers.  How is the funding 

19           formula for community colleges coming along?  

20           You know, I did note in the budget that the 

21           Governor put out that it stayed flat.  So 

22           flat in an inflationary period is a cut.  And 

23           I'm very concerned about funding our 

24           community colleges because those are the 


                                                                   52

 1           gateways for many students in rural areas to 

 2           be able to make their foray into higher 

 3           education.  

 4                  So could you address how we're working 

 5           to actually fully fund our community 

 6           colleges?  Because they have a different 

 7           funding model than the other SUNY campuses, 

 8           and it's becoming even more precarious, in my 

 9           mind.

10                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Appreciate the 

11           question, Assemblyman.  And appreciate 

12           your having joined me on visits to campuses 

13           and your interest in community colleges.

14                  I will say community colleges have 

15           lost significant enrollment over the last 

16           decade.  That's probably the biggest 

17           financial challenge.  

18                  ASSEMBLYMAN SMULLEN:  Why have they 

19           lost enrollment?  

20                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Well, it's a 

21           mix of factors.  Certainly, you know, we've 

22           seen that nationally, a decline in community 

23           college enrollment.  Some of it has to do 

24           with folks making the choice to go directly 


                                                                   53

 1           into jobs.  Some of it has to do with folks 

 2           not having the resources to go to college.  

 3                  One of the reasons why TAP reform and 

 4           Pell reform is so promising, because the 

 5           purchasing power of TAP and Pell have 

 6           diminished over the last two decades.  

 7                  So resources are a constraint.  The 

 8           competition with the economy is a constraint.  

 9           But what we see is that as our community 

10           colleges adjust and offer programs 

11           specifically that help provide a pathway into 

12           the workforce, we are seeing great demand 

13           there.  It's one of the reasons we are so 

14           appreciative of the TAP for workforce 

15           development programs.  

16                  The Governor's budget, you know, 

17           maintains the funding floor, which protects 

18           what would otherwise be an $85 million cut if 

19           the funding was based solely on enrollment.  

20           As I mentioned earlier, the community college 

21           presidents have a proposal around an 

22           additional operating investment focused on 

23           workforce opportunities and their role in 

24           preparing the semiconductor workforce we 


                                                                   54

 1           need, the green jobs workforce we need, the 

 2           nurses and allied health field folks that we 

 3           need.  

 4                  And so we are eager to have a fuller 

 5           conversation with you and your colleagues 

 6           about how we might enhance community college 

 7           funding specifically around workforce needs.

 8                  ASSEMBLYMAN SMULLEN:  Yeah, thank you 

 9           very much for that, because one of the 

10           programs that's been very successful in my 

11           mind is the P-TECH program, Early College 

12           High School.  And, you know, I see an 

13           opportunity with the community colleges of 

14           how they're spread throughout the state to 

15           actually being -- taking more of a role, 

16           educating more high schoolers in more 

17           technical aspects.  

18                  You know, I would love to see that 

19           every college in the state would have a 

20           program for Early College High School to 

21           teach like AP physics to high schoolers.  

22           Otherwise, it's not available to these rural 

23           kids who then are at a disadvantage when they 

24           go to apply to schools that require a lot of 


                                                                   55

 1           technical advanced learning in order to be 

 2           admitted to them, that sort of thing.  It 

 3           puts our rural kids at a comparative 

 4           disadvantage.

 5                  So regarding the full-time-equivalent 

 6           funding model itself, we've talked in the 

 7           past about having it on a rolling 10-year 

 8           average to prevent it from being the ups and 

 9           downs of the countercyclical nature of 

10           community colleges.  Would that be a helpful 

11           paradigm in order to get the budgeting right 

12           for these community colleges?  They get 

13           one-third of their funding from the state, 

14           they get one-third from the students, they 

15           get one-third from the communities, the 

16           property taxpayers primarily in those areas.  

17           How are we able to -- you know, to level this 

18           funding out so it's steady for them?

19                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Yeah, we'd 

20           certainly be open to a conversation about 

21           that.  

22                  I will say the floor over recent years 

23           has been critical.  And I would not want to 

24           depart from the community college funding 


                                                                   56

 1           floor.  The community colleges are really 

 2           counting on that for their planning.

 3                  That said, a larger conversation about 

 4           the level of funding as well as ways to level 

 5           it out over time as enrollment shifts -- we 

 6           certainly would be open to that conversation.  

 7                  One of the keys for us is, though, 

 8           converting the folks who are in workforce 

 9           development programs that are non-credit into 

10           students in degree programs.  You know, we 

11           have 1.4 million students we serve each year 

12           at SUNY, but a million of them are in 

13           these -- are in programs other than the 

14           degree programs.  And so we've really got to 

15           get better at that.

16                  ASSEMBLYMAN SMULLEN:  If we had lots 

17           of microcredentialing, that would be awesome.

18                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Absolutely.  

19           absolutely.  

20                  ASSEMBLYMAN SMULLEN:  Thanks, 

21           Chancellor.

22                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Senate?

23                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

24                  Senator Murray.


                                                                   57

 1                  SENATOR MURRAY:  Thank you, Chair.  

 2                  And thank you both for being here.

 3                  A couple of quick questions.  First, 

 4           on the -- we have a migrant issue, we have a 

 5           housing and shelter problem.  There's been 

 6           talk of possibly using SUNY or CUNY campuses.  

 7           Where does that stand now?  Is that currently 

 8           happening?  Are there still talks going on?  

 9           Where are we?

10                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  You know, look, 

11           the state is facing this humanitarian crisis.  

12           The Governor asked last year for all state 

13           agencies to identify how they could help to 

14           address this humanitarian crisis.  We 

15           responded to that request.

16                  But to date, it has not been necessary 

17           to have folks housed at our facilities.  We 

18           have one program that's longstanding with a 

19           nonprofit at Buffalo State.  But other than 

20           that, we really haven't had a role so far.

21                  SENATOR MURRAY:  Okay.  Thank you.  

22                  There's pending legislation now -- 

23           sorry, I only have three minutes, so -- 

24           there's pending legislation right now that 


                                                                   58

 1           would require project labor agreements on 

 2           projects of 3 million or more.  It's working 

 3           its way through the Legislature now.  It has 

 4           a lot of support.  What are your thoughts on 

 5           that?

 6                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  We're certainly 

 7           open to conversation about how the PLA law 

 8           could work.  You know, I think there are 

 9           different needs in different regions of the 

10           state.  So we'd want to talk through the 

11           implications for timelines for construction 

12           projects depending on the region of the 

13           state.  But certainly open to the continued 

14           conversation on that.

15                  SENATOR MURRAY:  Are there any 

16           particular sticking points that you see?  

17                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Again, I think 

18           it goes down -- it comes back to regional 

19           differences across the state, and places 

20           where there are real labor-supply shortages 

21           and what that would mean for our ability to 

22           complete projects.  But we're very open to 

23           the conversation.

24                  SENATOR MURRAY:  What about yourself?


                                                                   59

 1                  CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:  I'm 

 2           not familiar with the legislation, so I 

 3           cannot comment.  So look forward to finding 

 4           out more and being able to respond.  

 5                  SENATOR MURRAY:  Okay, very good.

 6                  And then finally, you had mentioned 

 7           research.  And I know at SUNY Stony Brook I 

 8           talked to President McInnis last year about a 

 9           lot of the great projects they have going on, 

10           but also about public/private partnerships 

11           and investing from the outside.  They're 

12           doing a fairly good job, but could be better.  

13           What are your thoughts on that?  

14                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  One of the 

15           things that was very helpful was the 

16           inclusion in last year's enacted budget of 

17           the endowment match.  As you know, for 

18           Stony Brook that has already translated into 

19           a $500 million unrestricted gift that will be 

20           matched with state funds.  That's very 

21           helpful to the long-term future of research 

22           at Stony Brook.  

23                  Stony Brook also is fortunate to be 

24           selected to lead the construction of a 


                                                                   60

 1           $700 million Climate Change and Resilience 

 2           Campus at Governors Island, and that is 

 3           another public-private partnership.  So we're 

 4           certainly trying to leverage those kinds of 

 5           private/public partnerships.  

 6                  Here in Albany the Governor recently 

 7           announced a $10 billion investment at 

 8           Albany NanoTech.  That is another 

 9           private-public partnership, to drive 

10           research.

11                  SENATOR MURRAY:  Thank you so much.

12                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Assembly.  

13                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Assemblyman Ra 

14           for five minutes, ranker.

15                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Thank you.  

16                  Good morning, Chancellors.  

17                  I want to go back to the antisemitism 

18           issue, in particular for Chancellor 

19           Rodríguez.  And if we have time, I'd be 

20           interested in, Chancellor King, your 

21           elaborating a little bit about measures that 

22           have been taken.  

23                  But as you know, you know, prior to 

24           October 7th this was a hot topic at CUNY, an 


                                                                   61

 1           issue.  I know you talked about some of the 

 2           initiatives that have been taken.  And I 

 3           certainly, you know, appreciate that you came 

 4           out rather strongly when it came to student 

 5           groups that were, you know, participating in 

 6           protests that I think were causing our 

 7           Jewish students to feel unsafe.  So I 

 8           appreciate that, and I hope you'll remain 

 9           steadfast with those Jewish students.  

10                  But where do you think CUNY is at this 

11           point in addressing this problem?  You know, 

12           every time there's some type of incident -- 

13           and, you know, I'm right over the Nassau 

14           border, so I certainly have -- I know every 

15           year you make a point of telling us, you 

16           know, students and staff that we have in our 

17           districts.  So it's certainly a big concern 

18           for our constituents, what's going on there.  

19                  So if you can give me a little bit 

20           more about what we're doing to make sure our 

21           Jewish students feel safe at this very 

22           difficult time.

23                  CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:  So 

24           thank you for the question.  


                                                                   62

 1                  And I mentioned that, you know, we 

 2           designed, even before October 7th, a plan to 

 3           address it because the cases were on the 

 4           rise.  We put funds from the Assembly that we 

 5           gave to the campuses as grants for them to be 

 6           able to do training programs, initiatives, 

 7           exhibits, educational work, right, to be able 

 8           to address some of these issues -- mostly 

 9           from a proactive standpoint as opposed to 

10           dealing with things when they occurred.

11                  We have been also having direct lines 

12           of communication with the Hillels on our 

13           campuses.  We have piloted a campus climate 

14           initiative on seven of our campuses, taking 

15           feedback from them.  I'll give you one 

16           example.  I established an Advisory Council 

17           on Jewish Life that has been giving me 

18           feedback about things that we could do 

19           better.  I'll give you one concrete example.  

20                  It is New York State law and CUNY 

21           policy that faculty need to accommodate 

22           students if they want to observe a religious 

23           holiday, that they be absent from the 

24           classes.  We got feedback from the students 


                                                                   63

 1           in the community that that was something that 

 2           not always, and we initiated a campaign using 

 3           student voices to let them know what CUNY 

 4           policy was and what New York State law is.  

 5           Right?  

 6                  And that was a way to say that we're 

 7           listening to their concerns and sending a 

 8           message of inclusion, of safety on the 

 9           campuses.  We will continue to do more.  And 

10           we take that very seriously.  And any 

11           feedback that you might have, or your 

12           colleagues, I'll be happy to listen to that 

13           too.

14                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Sure.  And can you 

15           give me any sense of what you're learning 

16           from the portal in terms of, you know, the 

17           number of incidents going up or down?  I 

18           think we know at large we've seen a huge 

19           uptick in these types of incidents in recent 

20           months.  But since the portal has been up, 

21           have you seen any trends with regard to 

22           incidents?  

23                  CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:  

24           Well, thank you for the question.  


                                                                   64

 1                  One thing that we learned is actually 

 2           we're procuring for a far more sophisticated 

 3           instrument to be able to capture and make it 

 4           easier for individuals to file any complaints 

 5           they might have on discrimination, harassment 

 6           or things of that matter, so that we can be 

 7           more timely in knowing where the cases are, 

 8           work with campuses that might have delays in 

 9           responding.

10                  So we learned that the portal was a 

11           great first step at centralizing getting good 

12           information, making something available to 

13           everybody in the system to be able to file a 

14           complaint before it was done, campus by 

15           campus.  And if you had questions for me 

16           about data, I would have to ask 25 separate 

17           campuses for their data.  

18                  So it's a step in the right direction, 

19           but as we did that, we now want something far 

20           more sophisticated that can be a lot more 

21           customer-friendly, that can send reports to 

22           the individuals who filed the complaints 

23           about where they are in time.  So we're 

24           procuring an instrument to be able to do 


                                                                   65

 1           that.  

 2                  And what we have done, to your 

 3           question too, in some of the campuses that 

 4           have had sort of higher numbers of incidents 

 5           reported, we've been able to deploy some 

 6           resources to help them expedite the 

 7           resolution of those complaints.

 8                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Thank you.  

 9                  And Chancellor King, anything you have 

10           on the issue in 30 seconds?  

11                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  I'd just add 

12           that, you know, I'm very proud of the work 

13           that our presidents and staff on our campuses 

14           have done to try to defuse issues, to try to 

15           create a climate for positive, safe exchange 

16           of ideas.  

17                  But this is an area where we have to 

18           be ever-vigilant.  And we've just been very 

19           clear at SUNY, we're not going to tolerate 

20           antisemitism.  We're going to take action.  

21           Every time there's a bias incident report, 

22           we're going to investigate it and make a 

23           determination on what next steps are 

24           necessary.


                                                                   66

 1                  CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:  And 

 2           687 students from CUNY in your district, 

 3           since you brought that up.

 4                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Thank you, 

 5           Chancellor.  

 6                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  To the Senate.

 7                  (Inaudible; off the record.)

 8                  SENATOR RIVERA:  Hello, Chancellor.  I 

 9           only have three minutes, so I'm going to 

10           get -- there's three questions that I have as 

11           follow-up to Senator Stavisky's questions 

12           regarding SUNY Downstate.  And we've had 

13           conversations about this.  But I have three, 

14           so I'm going to ask them all and then I will 

15           give you the opportunity.  

16                  Number one, you keep referring to 

17           money that has been committed to actually -- 

18           to make this transformation happen, both on 

19           the capital side and the operational side.  

20           Can you tell us where in the budget that is?  

21           That's number one.  

22                  Number two, there was a series of 

23           questions that the -- that Senator Stavisky 

24           asked about -- both about the Certificate of 


                                                                   67

 1           Need and also Health Equity Impact 

 2           Assessments.  And sincerely, both of those 

 3           questions you really did not answer them 

 4           well.  The notion -- and this is why I wanted 

 5           to get into whether you felt that we're 

 6           talking about processes that are required for 

 7           basically any other health institution around 

 8           the state that is trying to do anything as 

 9           what -- that is close to what you're 

10           suggesting you want to do at SUNY Downstate.  

11           So the fact that you're saying, Well, we 

12           might get into that, you didn't answer the 

13           question directly of whether that's going to 

14           be sought or not, which is truly 

15           unacceptable.  But I wanted you to have a 

16           chance to kind of explain yourself there.  I 

17           should tell you there's a piece of 

18           legislation I've introduced to kind of make 

19           it so that every institution has to go 

20           through the same thing.

21                  But regardless, the third one is 

22           related to the community involvement process.  

23           You stated just -- earlier referred to 

24           something that happened yesterday, 


                                                                   68

 1           February 7th, as relates to community 

 2           involvement.  Which if I had any 

 3           conversations with any of my colleague who 

 4           represent the area, any of the community 

 5           organizations that are there, some of the 

 6           folks who work there or represent the people 

 7           who work there, all of them are -- have been 

 8           very clear, in every conversation that I've 

 9           had, and certainly every public comment that 

10           they've made, that the community involvement 

11           process has been nonexistent or a failure so 

12           far.  

13                  So the fact that you're saying proudly 

14           you did something yesterday on something that 

15           you announced a couple of weeks ago that the 

16           Department of Health, as was stated, right 

17           there on the record told me that they found 

18           out that this was happening from you, from 

19           the press, all of that stuff.  

20                  So those are the three things.  

21           Where's the money?  Please be specific.  

22           Number two, the Certificate of Need process.  

23           And number three, do you sincerely think that 

24           the process you've gone through so far as far 


                                                                   69

 1           as community involvement has been a good one?  

 2                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Again, to be 

 3           clear, our goal is to protect the Health 

 4           Sciences University, strengthen it, and to 

 5           preserve and expand health services in the 

 6           community.

 7                  The funding that the Governor 

 8           committed to in the Executive Budget is in a 

 9           fund -- I believe it's called the Hospital 

10           Transformation Fund.  But we can get you the 

11           specific reference to the -- 

12                  SENATOR RIVERA:  Please do.  We'll 

13           follow up with whomever.  Raise your hand who 

14           we're following up with.

15                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Yes, Val Grey, 

16           our senior vice chancellor for health and 

17           hospitals, can follow up.  And we've also 

18           briefed Senate staff on that.

19                  So that's the source of the funding.  

20           As the enacted budget is finalized, there may 

21           be other places to address some of the 

22           funding.  One of the goals is to have an 

23           expanded simulation lab, for example, at 

24           Downstate to support the training of nurses.  


                                                                   70

 1                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  We 

 2           go to Assemblyman Epstein, three minutes.  

 3                  ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN:  Good morning.  

 4           Thank you both for being here.  

 5                  So TAP, expanding opportunities for 

 6           people to get TAP, I hear you both saying 

 7           that.  So do you agree on increasing the 

 8           minimum award, allowing more semesters of 

 9           TAP, and allowing TAP for grad school for 

10           students, both of you?

11                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  More TAP would 

12           be great.  Raising the income threshold would 

13           be great.  When we had our TAP hearing, 

14           you'll recall, I pointed out that the income 

15           threshold of $80,000 --

16                  ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN:  I only have 

17           three minutes, so I --

18                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Oh, sorry.  

19           Just that the income threshold at $80,000, if 

20           it had gone up with inflation since 2000, it 

21           would be $145,000.

22                  ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN:  Great.

23                  CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:  More 

24           TAP, all over, good.  Increasing the 


                                                                   71

 1           eligibility, good.

 2                  ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN:  Great.  Thank 

 3           you.

 4                  And so I wanted just to talk about 

 5           greening your campuses.  And so we have the 

 6           Environmental Bond Act.  You know, our 

 7           government lands are a real place where we 

 8           could do wind, solar, have our students get 

 9           involved in composting -- there's so many 

10           opportunities there.  I'm wondering if you 

11           both -- I know you've talked about green 

12           plans, and like quickly, can we hear what we 

13           can do to help you move forward in that 

14           agenda?  

15                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Yeah.  We're 

16           very focused on this.  We appointed our first 

17           ever chief sustainability officer, who's 

18           leading in this work.  

19                  There are two -- the major challenge 

20           is capital.  We have an over $8 billion 

21           capital backlog across the system.  We've 

22           prioritized, in the use of any capital 

23           dollars we get, we move up in the project 

24           list projects that will move towards energy 


                                                                   72

 1           efficiency, help us get towards net-zero.  

 2           But we need more.  And we have a specific 

 3           proposal around a $100 million clean energy 

 4           fund, which would help us implement the 

 5           energy master plans that we've gathered from 

 6           our campuses.  But that would be hugely 

 7           helpful.

 8                  CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:  On 

 9           our end, too, if you saw our budget request 

10           on capital, we made a specific ask precisely 

11           about those things to be able to {inaudible} 

12           sustainability goals for the state.

13                  So be happy to do a deeper dive on 

14           that.  But we concur, I concur with 

15           Chancellor King too that for that, if you 

16           could have, you know, dollars that go to 

17           that, it would be helpful to advance all 

18           those goals.  In addition to that, it helps 

19           the entire state of good repair of our 

20           facilities.

21                  ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN:  And just for the 

22           CUNY system, I know the issue of dorms is a 

23           big issue and having dorm space.  Obviously 

24           on a lot of our SUNY campuses we have them, 


                                                                   73

 1           but mostly we don't on CUNY.  How do we 

 2           expand those opportunities to get students 

 3           into our CUNY system knowing they may have a 

 4           place to live?  As you know, the city is one 

 5           of the most expensive cities in the country.

 6                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Well, so we 

 7           have a study that we're concluding about what 

 8           we can do.  We've been mostly a commuting 

 9           campus, so that's the challenge for us.  The 

10           same forces that affect housing for 

11           New Yorkers affect our students.  So we want 

12           to see if we can find a way that we can 

13           leverage our real estate, our assets, to be 

14           able to provide more funding so that it's far 

15           more affordable to many more of our students.  

16           And we have a plan coming out, and we're 

17           probably going to launch a couple of projects 

18           around that.

19                  ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN:  Great.  Happy to 

20           be helpful there.  Thank you.

21                  CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:  

22           Thank you.

23                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Senate?  

24                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  


                                                                   74

 1                  Senator John Liu.

 2                  SENATOR LIU:  Thank you, Madam Chair.  

 3                  Good morning, gentlemen.

 4                  CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:  Good 

 5           morning.

 6                  SENATOR LIU:  Thank you for joining 

 7           us.  I've got a few questions and not much 

 8           time.

 9                  In the past, has the state funded the 

10           negotiation increase -- cost increases?  Has 

11           the state -- 

12                  CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:  The 

13           labor contracts?

14                  SENATOR LIU:  Yes.

15                  CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:  I 

16           think before 2011 or so, yes.

17                  SENATOR LIU:  Is that true for SUNY 

18           also?  

19                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Well, I started 

20           last January.  So I'll get you a rundown of 

21           the history on that.

22                  SENATOR LIU:  Okay.  But in the 

23           current budget there's no provision for labor 

24           contract cost increases?  


                                                                   75

 1                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  That is right.

 2                  SENATOR LIU:  Okay, thank you.  

 3                  This is for Chancellor King.  

 4           Chancellor King, we had spoken at length in 

 5           the aftermath of the Supreme Court -- the 

 6           appalling Supreme Court decision on 

 7           affirmative action, and we all understand how 

 8           badly it hurts Black and brown students 

 9           across the country.  

10                  But I had asked you about how it hurts 

11           yellow students -- I'm sorry, Asian-American 

12           students.  And you were going to talk about 

13           it with the Governor, get more resources, get 

14           a better understanding how it may affect 

15           Asian-American students.  Any progress on 

16           that?

17                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Look, our 

18           Asian-American percentage has gone up at SUNY 

19           over recent years.  I have every expectation 

20           that it will go up again this year, based on 

21           that historical pattern.  

22                  The board adopted a very clear 

23           resolution to help campuses use every 

24           available legal tool to continue to advance 


                                                                   76

 1           our broader commitment to diversity, looking 

 2           at first-gen status, low-income status, 

 3           adversity a student may have overcome in 

 4           their school or community, if a student is a 

 5           veteran, if a student is an AmeriCorps alum.  

 6                  So we are hopeful that we can continue 

 7           to advance our values around diversity.  And 

 8           we'll get you numbers as soon as we have them 

 9           on this year's incoming class.  

10                  SENATOR LIU:  Yeah, I think it's 

11           important because I think the Asian-American 

12           community is fast-growing on SUNY campuses -- 

13           CUNY campuses also, to be sure, but SUNY 

14           campuses in particular.  And we want to 

15           understand what that Supreme Court ruling 

16           does for Asian-American students.  

17                  We've been having this discussion for 

18           several months now, and it would be good to 

19           have -- to get some hard numbers on progress.  

20           Again, what SUNY is doing to make sure that 

21           there is continued recruitment of 

22           Asian-American students as well as 

23           African-American and Latinx students.  You 

24           know, Black, brown and yellow.


                                                                   77

 1                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Yeah.

 2                  SENATOR LIU:  And also making sure 

 3           that we understand what the potential impact 

 4           of that Supreme Court ruling would have on 

 5           Asian-American students.

 6                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Yes.

 7                  SENATOR LIU:  Okay.  And I appreciate 

 8           your testimony here.  It talks about the 

 9           continuing Hispanic Leadership Institute, the 

10           Black Leadership Institute.  I feel -- I feel 

11           like I have a complex.  Maybe we'll add 

12           something else there too.

13                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  I'm hopeful.  

14           There is -- as you know, there is a bill and 

15           I'm hopeful that there will be an API 

16           Leadership Institute.

17                  SENATOR LIU:  Thank you so much.  

18                  Felo, you have a very handsome guy 

19           right in back of you, Hector Battista.  Good 

20           to see him as well.

21                  CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:  I am 

22           blessed to have an incredible team, yes.

23                  (Overtalk.)

24                  SENATOR LIU:  Sherif's not so bad 


                                                                   78

 1           either.

 2                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Compliments 

 3           will all come later.

 4                  (Laughter.)

 5                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  We go to 

 6           Assemblywoman Clark.

 7                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN CLARK:  Oh, Chairwoman, 

 8           it's so great to have you back.  

 9                  I am going to try to be quick with a 

10           comment-question-comment in my three minutes. 

11                  My first comment is I agree on the 

12           universal FAFSA.  I think it's a great idea.  

13           My question is, it's put in as Article VII 

14           language with no money coming with it.  One 

15           of the reasons we know people don't fill out 

16           their FAFSA forms is they're complicated, 

17           particularly in our urban districts, our 

18           rural districts.  I think there needs to be a 

19           pot of money that goes with it.  I don't 

20           think every school needs a coordinator.  I 

21           think we can do this through a grant program.  

22           We already have a great organization in 

23           Rochester, the Rochester Education 

24           Foundation, that supports our city school 


                                                                   79

 1           district to do this.  

 2                  But we need to give them more 

 3           resources if this is going to be a 

 4           requirement.  We want the ones to apply who 

 5           find it complicated, because they are the 

 6           ones who are also leaving money on the table.  

 7           So I really don't think we can just put this 

 8           in there and walk away.  We really need to 

 9           put some dollars behind it.  And I would 

10           encourage you to look at that.

11                  On that, I'm going to go into TAP a 

12           bit.  We heard during that TAP hearing that 

13           during the four-year from 2018 to 2022, there 

14           was a 9 percent decline in enrollment in our 

15           SUNY campuses, but a 26 percent decline in 

16           TAP.  Which means that there are more and 

17           more parents and families who are either 

18           thinking the minimum award isn't enough, so 

19           they're not applying, or they're no longer 

20           qualifying because of the income.

21                  So in the Governor's budget I see that 

22           she moved out 132 million from TAP due to 

23           enrollment.  I don't understand why we're not 

24           using those dollars instead to increase 


                                                                   80

 1           income eligibility, to increase minimum 

 2           awards, to close the gap between SUNY and the 

 3           maximum award.  So why didn't we do that 

 4           instead of removing it from TAP?

 5                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  As I mentioned, 

 6           I'm very supportive, we're very supportive of 

 7           trying to address the income threshold for 

 8           dependent students and independent students.  

 9           That income threshold at $10,000 has been the 

10           same since the mid-'80s.  And that is a real 

11           challenge for families and students.  And 

12           they not only make the choice not to come to 

13           college, but many of them make the choice to 

14           come to college and then struggle with food 

15           insecurity, housing insecurity because they 

16           don't have the resources.

17                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN CLARK:  I would agree.  

18           And I think if we do move to universal FAFSA, 

19           and if that is something we move forward 

20           with, TAP also is going to increase.  So why 

21           we're pulling any money out of it in the 

22           budget just doesn't seem to make sense to me.

23                  My last thing I will quickly comment 

24           on, and maybe -- I know others are going to 


                                                                   81

 1           go into it.  But on the operating aid last 

 2           year, you know, we really hoped more of that 

 3           would go to distressed campuses.  I think it 

 4           was our intent in the Legislature, so we were 

 5           a little frustrated that it didn't.  

 6                  And also just a quick over -- you 

 7           know, we heard from our community college, 

 8           MCC is located in my district, and we were 

 9           told we're still trying to do a lot to bring 

10           all their resources there to do some of the 

11           certification programs and workforce 

12           training.  But they were told they could not 

13           apply for capital dollars in the SUNY 

14           allotment.  I don't know if that's true or 

15           not, but I want to make sure they are 

16           eligible.

17                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  The process for 

18           community college capital, you know, is 

19           different because of the community match.  

20                  On the distressed campuses I'll just 

21           say, you know, all of our campuses got 

22           double-digit percentage increases.  You know, 

23           two of our campuses who have the biggest 

24           challenges, Fredonia and Potsdam, had over 


                                                                   82

 1           20 percent, somewhere between a 20 and 

 2           25 percent increase in state support last 

 3           year.  They have a structural deficit.

 4                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

 5                  We're going to go to the Senate.

 6                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

 7                  Robert Jackson.

 8                  SENATOR JACKSON:  So good morning to 

 9           both of you.

10                  CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:  Good 

11           morning.

12                  SENATOR JACKSON:  I've been listening 

13           since it began, and let me just tell you, I 

14           think that we're in trouble.

15                  And my question I guess to you, 

16           Chancellor Rodríguez, is if in fact the money 

17           doesn't come through from the Legislature and 

18           the Governor working together, what's the 

19           negative impact that it's going to be on this 

20           contract?  And who's going to be impacted as 

21           far as staff and students?  And I know we can 

22           go on but try to make it quick.

23                  CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:  I 

24           don't know if I can say thank you for your 


                                                                   83

 1           question, because obviously those are 

 2           scenarios that we don't want to contemplate.  

 3           And we think that we have a path, with the 

 4           measures that we've taken and the additional 

 5           support from the Assembly and the Senate, 

 6           that we have a path forward.  

 7                  But to be direct about your question, 

 8           85 percent of our costs are individuals, 

 9           people.  Right?  So if we -- if we don't get 

10           the support for the labor contracts moving 

11           forward, which has been the reason for the 

12           structural deficit, for the most part -- and 

13           enrollment growth is not going to solve the 

14           issue.  So we'll be talking about having --

15                  SENATOR JACKSON:  You'll be in default 

16           on your agreement, then.

17                  CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:  We 

18           will have to sort of go back and think about 

19           further staffing, you know, cuts and things 

20           of that nature, which would be detrimental to 

21           the student experience.

22                  SENATOR JACKSON:  Chancellor King, so 

23           I'm looking here at some of the questions we 

24           have from our central staff -- thank you -- 


                                                                   84

 1           and I'm looking at the funding for the 

 2           Opportunity Program.  And I see all of this 

 3           red here, meaning cuts in funding for the 

 4           people that may not have the highest grades, 

 5           may not -- clearly don't have the income, so 

 6           this is support so they can get into college.  

 7                  Why are we doing this when we have a 

 8           $232 billion budget and $20 billion in 

 9           reserves.  And if in fact maybe it's just a 

10           game that we're playing and at the end 

11           everything's going to work out -- I hope so.  

12           Maybe I'll wake up at that point in time and 

13           see the light.  But right now I don't see it.  

14                  Give me your point of view.

15                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Yeah, look, I'm 

16           very grateful for you being a champion of the 

17           EOP.  The difference EOP has made for the 

18           state is extraordinary.  We are very hopeful 

19           that the cuts to EOP will be restored in the 

20           enacted budget.  I'd love to see the EOP 

21           program continue to grow.  

22                  SENATOR JACKSON:  Okay, thank you.  

23                  Downstate is a major issue.  And I'm 

24           not even from Brooklyn, but I know the impact 


                                                                   85

 1           of Downstate from a positive point of view on 

 2           the community around it, and also for the 

 3           doctors and all of the physicians coming out 

 4           of there.  And so I got an email update last 

 5           night as far as how to keep it going, but I 

 6           hope that's real and not just fluff.  I don't 

 7           need fluff.  We need real talk in order to 

 8           save Downstate Medical Center.  

 9                  And I'm with my colleague Zellnor 

10           Myrie, and everybody else, to save it.  So --

11                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  I'm committed 

12           to saving the hospital.  That's what we're 

13           trying to achieve.

14                  SENATOR JACKSON:  Thank you.  

15                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

16                  Assembly.

17                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  We go to 

18           Assemblywoman Chandler-Waterman.

19                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN CHANDLER-WATERMAN:  

20           Thank you, Chancellor.  Thank you, Chair.  

21                  My community members are very 

22           concerned -- to go off from the Senator -- 

23           about the future of Downstate Hospital, 

24           especially this new plan.  The stakeholders 


                                                                   86

 1           were not included in this process.  This plan 

 2           came out before the Department of Health 

 3           Equity Report was done.  

 4                  It's called a Transformational Plan.  

 5           Our community sees it as a closure of their 

 6           beloved hospital.  They do not agree with 

 7           this plan, and I stand with my community.  We 

 8           are clear we need to reimagine how we make 

 9           SUNY Downstate Hospital more sustainable, and 

10           the education part to provide the best for 

11           the patients and the education.  We 

12           understand that.  There are many areas of 

13           concern.  

14                  I'll start with two questions.  The 

15           community involvement and time frame.  What 

16           is the strategy and methods you'll be using 

17           not only to inform the community, but also to 

18           make sure they're truly included in the 

19           decision process?  How many jobs will be 

20           lost?  How many people are still waiting to 

21           receive their permanency after serving seven 

22           years, which is tenure or however you may be 

23           vested?  How many people are still waiting 

24           for that?  


                                                                   87

 1                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Look, you know, 

 2           the only thing that would cause closure is 

 3           the status quo.  If there is not an infusion 

 4           of additional dollars because of the 

 5           $100 million deficit, we will not be able to 

 6           continue to operate come summer.  And so we 

 7           need to have in this budget a path forward 

 8           that addresses the deficit.  

 9                  We also need a path forward that 

10           addresses the facility.  There's regular 

11           flooding.  The HVAC is vulnerable to failure, 

12           in which case you wouldn't be able to provide 

13           services.  So we're trying here to preserve 

14           the hospital through the capital investment 

15           the Governor is making, through the 

16           partnership with other hospitals.  

17                  The community involvement that we've 

18           laid out will be to gather community input on 

19           the inpatient services, on the outpatient 

20           services, and the new $300 million building.  

21           How to address the primary care needs.  

22           Community input on the Health Disparities 

23           Institute that will also be housed in the --

24                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN CHANDLER-WATERMAN:  


                                                                   88

 1           Sorry, what's the time frame for that?

 2                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Over the coming 

 3           weeks and months.

 4                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN CHANDLER-WATERMAN:  And 

 5           the jobs.  And the permanency.  

 6                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  In terms of 

 7           jobs, the vast majority of jobs will be 

 8           preserved.  All of the CSEA, PEF and NYSCOPBA 

 9           employees would have roles either at the 

10           dedicated SUNY Downstate space across the 

11           street or at one of the other SUNY Downstate 

12           facilities.  We have one in Bay Ridge, for 

13           example.  

14                  And the only place where there would 

15           be a change around the jobs is around some of 

16           the UUP members.  We tried in this plan to 

17           preserve as many jobs as possible.  But there 

18           would be a --

19                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN CHANDLER-WATERMAN:  No 

20           jobs lost.

21                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  There would be 

22           a 10 to 20 percent loss for UUP.  

23                  But we're in the midst of a healthcare 

24           workforce shortage.  There will be --


                                                                   89

 1                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN CHANDLER-WATERMAN:  And 

 2           the permanency?

 3                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  -- roles for 

 4           many folks potentially at other SUNY 

 5           hospitals, roles at other hospitals in 

 6           Central Brooklyn.  And we want to work with 

 7           folks to place every person.

 8                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

 9                  We're going to go to the Senate.

10                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

11                  Senator Lea Webb.

12                  SENATOR WEBB:  Good morning to both 

13           chancellors.  

14                  I'm just going to ask my questions as 

15           I have limited time.  

16                  So this is for Chancellor King.  The 

17           Legislature fought to increase operating aid 

18           to SUNY by $163 million last year.  Myself, 

19           along with other champions, really pushed for 

20           it.  My question is, with that level of 

21           historic funding, why are we still seeing 

22           campuses closing and faculty being laid off?  

23           And how were those funds distributed?  

24                  And then my next question pertains to 


                                                                   90

 1           the community colleges.  We know there was a 

 2           big campaign -- again, a lot of us supported 

 3           it -- the "floor plus four."  The four didn't 

 4           happen.  And so in looking ahead at this 

 5           year's budget, we know that our community 

 6           colleges still need significant operational 

 7           funding.  There's significant disparities 

 8           there between our two-year and four-year 

 9           colleges.  My question is, what is the plan 

10           for that?  

11                  And then my last question goes to the 

12           concern that I'm hearing with respect to 

13           communication around our SUNY campuses, 

14           specifically with Downstate and Upstate.  We 

15           know that these facilities provide 

16           significant care, high-needs care.  And so I 

17           am concerned that we're not getting 

18           information in ways that can be helpful as 

19           legislators in making decisions.

20                  So those are my three questions.

21                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  So in terms of 

22           the 163 million, for which we are very 

23           grateful, we distribute really in two ways.  

24           One, every state-operated campus saw a 


                                                                   91

 1           double-digit percentage increase in funding.  

 2           Second, we were able to commit resources to 

 3           address mental health needs across the 

 4           state-operated campuses, supports for 

 5           students with disabilities, expanding 

 6           internships, research -- based on the 

 7           principle that all of our campuses have needs 

 8           and opportunities for growth.  And the net 

 9           result was this past fall we had over 700 new 

10           faculty hires across our campuses.  So we're 

11           leveraging those dollars to grow the system.

12                  That said, we have campuses that over 

13           a 10-year period saw a 40 percent decline in 

14           enrollment, or more -- in particular, Potsdam 

15           and Fredonia.  And so even with a 

16           double-digit percentage increase in funding, 

17           they still have a structural deficit because 

18           they haven't adjusted their programming to 

19           match being a much smaller campus.  You know, 

20           with Potsdam we're talking about going from 

21           4,000 to about 2500.  They have buildings 

22           that are empty that they're paying to heat.  

23           So they really have a need to now adjust to 

24           being a 2500-student campus.  


                                                                   92

 1                  But we think this -- the plan the 

 2           president has set out there will make them a 

 3           sustainable 2500-student campus.  We're not 

 4           closing any campuses.  We are committed to 

 5           all 64 of our institutions and trying to make 

 6           sure they have the resources to invest in 

 7           areas of growing student demand.

 8                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

 9                  Assembly.

10                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Assemblyman 

11           Dilan.

12                  ASSEMBLYMAN DILAN:  Thank you, Madam 

13           Chair. 

14                  I just have a brief question for 

15           Chancellor Matos.  Some of my colleagues have 

16           talked about your personnel issues, and I see 

17           in your budget your fringe costs are going 

18           up, and those have been budgeted.  They've 

19           touched around the contract negotiations, but 

20           I think no one's asked directly:  How much 

21           are you spending on your labor contracts 

22           throughout all the labor unions that CUNY 

23           serves at this moment?

24                  CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:  So 


                                                                   93

 1           the budget request that we have is -- and I 

 2           will need -- 184 million to be able to cover 

 3           the labor costs for last year and this year, 

 4           because the contract had lapsed.  Right?  And 

 5           that's about 41 million for the classified 

 6           staff and the rest for the Professional Staff 

 7           Congress.

 8                  ASSEMBLYMAN DILAN:  Okay.  And 

 9           obviously you expect it to go up after this 

10           year.

11                  CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:  Yes.  

12           And that funding, as I said, thank you, is 

13           indispensable.

14                  ASSEMBLYMAN DILAN:  Okay.  And thank 

15           you.  

16                  And for Chancellor King -- and I do 

17           want to thank my colleagues who are not from 

18           Brooklyn for raising SUNY Downstate.  I'll 

19           take a different approach in the questioning.

20                  Is your main reason for the changes at 

21           the facility -- the operating I know is a 

22           challenge.  Is the main hurdle the capital 

23           from the facility?

24                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  It's really 


                                                                   94

 1           both.  Because of the $100 million deficit, 

 2           we have to have a solution in this budget to 

 3           continue to operate.  

 4                  But the facility challenges are 

 5           significant.  I was talking to a doctor  

 6           recently at Downstate who was saying -- you 

 7           know, it had been cold the past few days and 

 8           she was worried that the pipes would burst 

 9           again and make it impossible to provide 

10           services in their area of the hospital.

11                  So we've got to address the facility.

12                  ASSEMBLYMAN DILAN:  I guess you've 

13           said privately, but what's the cost on the 

14           capital side to renovate in place as opposed 

15           to new construction?

16                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Yeah.  I mean, 

17           to construct a similarly sized facility new 

18           we project would be about $3 billion, based 

19           on the comparables.

20                  To try to do that kind of renovation 

21           in the existing building would be even more 

22           expensive -- probably on the order of 

23           $4 billion.  And you're talking about years.  

24           I mean, eight to 10 years for a new building.


                                                                   95

 1                  ASSEMBLYMAN DILAN:  My final question 

 2           is:  Have you reached out to city and federal 

 3           partners on the capital side to see if they 

 4           could be of assistance?

 5                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  We continue to 

 6           talk with city and federal officials about 

 7           this plan, and certainly we would love to 

 8           have additional capital support.  I think one 

 9           of the challenges is in that service area 

10           there are about 1500 beds, of which about 700 

11           are in regular use.  And so one of the 

12           hurdles to overcome is figuring out --

13                  ASSEMBLYMAN DILAN:  The vacancy rate 

14           of it?

15                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Yeah, the 

16           vacancy rate, exactly.  Is figuring out how 

17           to fit this plan into a larger plan for 

18           Central Brooklyn.

19                  ASSEMBLYMAN DILAN:  Thank you, 

20           Madam Chair.

21                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  To the Senate.

22                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

23           much.

24                  Senator Oberacker.


                                                                   96

 1                  SENATOR OBERACKER:  Thank you, 

 2           Madam Chair.  

 3                  And good morning, Chancellors.

 4                  PANELISTS:  Good morning.

 5                  SENATOR OBERACKER:  So I am a product 

 6           of SUNY.  And having eight SUNY campuses in 

 7           my district, it's a very important footprint, 

 8           of course, for that.

 9                  Chancellor King, you said in your 

10           testimony there was 163 million for operating 

11           support, 75 million for I believe it was 

12           transformational programming, and then 54 

13           million for a multiyear commitment for 

14           operating.  

15                  So the question is, will any of that 

16           funding be channeled potentially to help in 

17           reducing tuition costs?

18                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Right now our 

19           budget model assumes maintaining our current 

20           tuition costs.  

21                  You know, for our students, about 

22           52 percent of our in-state students go 

23           tuition-free now.  So these resources are 

24           being deployed to support faculty and support 


                                                                   97

 1           services for our students.  Our tuition is 

 2           still quite a bit lower than many of our peer 

 3           institutions.

 4                  But we're very committed to the 

 5           principle of affordability and would love to 

 6           work with all of you on TAP reform and other 

 7           strategies to ensure affordability.

 8                  SENATOR OBERACKER:  Great.  Thank you 

 9           for that.

10                  My next question.  So in recent years 

11           additional operating support has been 

12           provided to SUNY and CUNY.  Have those 

13           resources, from your perspective, been 

14           distributed to campuses struggling with 

15           budget deficits?

16                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Yeah.  Yes.  

17           So, you know, all of our campuses last year 

18           got a double-digit percentage increase.  You 

19           know, the two campuses I mentioned earlier, 

20           Potsdam and Fredonia, got more than a 

21           20 percent increase in state aid last year.  

22                  But the challenges at some of our 

23           campuses where they've lost a lot of 

24           enrollment, they really have to adjust to 


                                                                   98

 1           being a smaller campus going forward in order 

 2           to be fiscally responsible.  And that's 

 3           really what we're trying to achieve.

 4                  SENATOR OBERACKER:  And 

 5           Chancellor King, we've had some discussions 

 6           on green energy projects and some potential 

 7           there.  I am again offering my 51st Senate 

 8           District as a grounds of potential testing of 

 9           those policies and procedures.  So please 

10           utilize it if and when you can.  

11                  And Madam Chair, I will cede back my 

12           27 seconds.  Thank you.

13                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

14                  Assembly.

15                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  We go to 

16           Assemblyman Flood.

17                  ASSEMBLYMAN FLOOD:  Thank you.

18                  This is for Dr. -- Chancellor King, I 

19           apologize.  We spoke briefly about 

20           potentially leasing lands on properties 

21           specifically on Farmingdale State and 

22           Stony Brook.  Did either President McInnis or 

23           President Nader specifically ask to have the 

24           properties there leased?


                                                                   99

 1                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  The exact 

 2           structure is still to be determined.  But 

 3           both campuses are interested in the prospect 

 4           of additional housing, particularly -- I'll 

 5           give you an example.  President Nader worries 

 6           a lot about how difficult it is for faculty 

 7           members to find housing they can afford on 

 8           Long Island.  And so he's hopeful that if 

 9           there's a housing project on the Farmingdale 

10           campus, it will create the opportunity for 

11           faculty housing.

12                  ASSEMBLYMAN FLOOD:  Okay.  Now, has 

13           there been any community engagement 

14           specifically in the Stony Brook area?  Just 

15           as -- as Stony Brook resides solely within my 

16           district, there is a tenuous relationship 

17           between the university and the community at 

18           best.  I've had many conversations with 

19           Dr. McInnis and her staff about exploring 

20           and, you know, opening up more of the campus 

21           to the community and making a more open 

22           community, I guess, between them.

23                  So has there been any engagement with 

24           the communities?


                                                                   100

 1                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  My 

 2           understanding is this is really the start of 

 3           a process to potentially explore the possible 

 4           development of housing.  There's certainly 

 5           been conversations with the community about 

 6           the need for additional housing, including 

 7           for faculty and staff.

 8                  ASSEMBLYMAN FLOOD:  I believe, quite 

 9           frankly, if it was faculty and staff, that 

10           that wouldn't be an issue.  But is there any 

11           restrictions on who could be coming?

12                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  At this point, 

13           this is early days of the project and just 

14           the beginning of a conversation about the 

15           nature of the project.  But the Governor 

16           wanted, I think, to highlight both campuses 

17           as places where there's the potential for 

18           housing.

19                  ASSEMBLYMAN FLOOD:  And I can assure 

20           you that the community at least in 

21           Stony Brook does not want to add more 

22           housing, specifically at least in rentals.  

23           They get upset already by the amount of 

24           Stony Brook students that fill out into the 


                                                                   101

 1           neighborhood.  Some of it's not necessarily, 

 2           you know, logical, but there's still a lot of 

 3           community outcry over it.

 4                  But just -- I don't have a whole lot 

 5           of time left.  Has there been any discussion 

 6           on, you know, as these -- I know it's early 

 7           discussions -- on what potential security 

 8           costs could be with, you know, renting out 

 9           part of this -- the facility to tenants?  And 

10           what would be addressed to keep students 

11           safe?

12                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  You know, look, 

13           as I mentioned, our students' safety is a top 

14           priority for us.  This is a very early-stage 

15           conversation, but that's certainly an issue 

16           that we'll want to address as either of these 

17           projects moves forward.

18                  ASSEMBLYMAN FLOOD:  Okay.  Thank you.

19                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Senate.

20                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

21                  Senator Chen {sic}.

22                  SENATOR CHU:  Thank you, Chair.  It's 

23           Chu.  Don't worry.  

24                  Good morning, Chancellors -- 


                                                                   102

 1                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  I'm so sorry --

 2                  SENATOR CHU:  Don't worry.

 3                  Good morning, Chancellors.  With my 

 4           limited time, I need this straightened for 

 5           SUNY Downstate.  

 6                  Chancellor King, would you be able to 

 7           help us understand the impact up to 

 8           20 percent of the staffing rearrangement?  I 

 9           need to humanize this.  Twenty percent, 

10           10 percent, it's a number.  What positions, 

11           what job titles we're talking about?  Those 

12           positions, they are facing to lose their 

13           years of building a pension, and they are 

14           foreseeing to find jobs somewhere else.

15                  Could you tell us the impact?  What 

16           are those job positions, what titles?

17                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Yeah.  The 

18           specific titles and positions will be 

19           determined over time through our 

20           conversations with faculty and staff at 

21           downstate as well as with H+H.  In some cases 

22           it will be doctors who currently are faculty 

23           members at SUNY Downstate part of the time, 

24           and part of the time their affiliation is 


                                                                   103

 1           with SUNY Downstate.  Some of those doctors 

 2           at the end of this process may change their 

 3           affiliation, whether that's to Kings County 

 4           or to Maimonides or to another hospital.

 5                  There's the potential, as we share 

 6           space with Kings County, that there would be 

 7           opportunities for shared services, and so 

 8           that may -- that may result in some positions 

 9           being duplicated, and so adjustments would 

10           need to be made.  We certainly have other 

11           roles at other SUNY hospitals, Stony Brook 

12           among them.  

13                  We want to work with UUP.  Remember, 

14           it's 10 to 20 percent of the UUP members at 

15           the hospital.  So it's not of the total.  You 

16           know, so we're talking about somewhere on the 

17           order of 175 to 375 folks.  We want to work 

18           with UUP member by member to figure out how 

19           we mitigate the disruption for folks, whether 

20           that's on benefits issues, transportation 

21           issues, relocation issues.

22                  But we want to minimize the impact, 

23           but it will be much -- I can say this.  The 

24           impact will be much less than if we get --


                                                                   104

 1                  SENATOR CHU:  Thank you.

 2                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  -- to summer 

 3           without money to continue to operate and 

 4           there are no jobs.

 5                  SENATOR CHU:  Thank you.  I have 

 6           another question.  I have another question.  

 7           Thirty seconds, real quick.  

 8                  About the neighboring hospitals, like 

 9           Maimonides, you mentioned that they are in 

10           the 85 or 70 percent capacity.  What's the 

11           conversation -- are they able to absorb on 

12           the patient side the potential increase of 

13           patients?  About their ER volume, are they 

14           able to adjust, or the certified beds?

15                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Yeah, so we're 

16           in conversation with Kings County and 

17           Maimonides about which services -- the bulk 

18           of the inpatient services would go to the 

19           dedicated Downstate space collocated with 

20           Kings County.

21                  But the -- so the exact impact on 

22           Maimonides will be determined in the coming 

23           weeks.  But they already partner with us very 

24           closely.  Many of our doctors work there as 


                                                                   105

 1           well as at Downstate.

 2                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

 3                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

 4                  We go to Assemblyman Gray.

 5                  ASSEMBLYMAN GRAY:  Thank you very 

 6           much.  

 7                  Chancellors, thank you for coming.

 8                  I'm going to roll through things for 

 9           Chancellor King and we'll be succinct, if we 

10           can.  

11                  So do we -- inventory of buildings 

12           that are fallow on SUNY state-operated -- or 

13           all SUNY campuses, do we have a handle on 

14           that?  Do we know what that is right now of, 

15           you know, non-performing assets?  Do we know 

16           what the burden is to the individuals by 

17           campus?  Do we know also electrification?  Is 

18           that included -- are SUNY campuses including 

19           that in their long-range plans?  And is that 

20           part of the $10 billion deficit?  Is there 

21           any -- is there any idea of taking over some 

22           of these fallow structures so SUNY campuses 

23           can focus on their mission, which is 

24           educating students, educating young adults 


                                                                   106

 1           and not necessarily worrying about empty 

 2           structures?  

 3                  And -- so I'm going to cover a lot 

 4           here.  So I have, as you know, five colleges, 

 5           higher education, right, between private and 

 6           SUNY.  And in St. Lawrence County, Potsdam, 

 7           we have both a college that's on the brink 

 8           and we have potential for a prison closure.  

 9           Right?  

10                  So the SUNY system in St. Lawrence 

11           County represents about 1500 jobs, right, 

12           $93 million in payroll.  Prisons represent 

13           300 jobs, $25 million in payroll.  I've got a 

14           community that sits here with tremendous 

15           uncertainty because of prison closures and 

16           the uncertainty of college campuses.  So are 

17           we committed to making sure that these 

18           college campuses do not fail?

19                  And then community colleges, third, 

20           third and a third, my colleague mentioned it 

21           earlier.  You know, the state is at 

22           428 million in funding, the students are at 

23           580 million, and counties are at 525.  Is 

24           there a plan to bring that into a third, 


                                                                   107

 1           third, and third?  Thank you.

 2                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Thanks for 

 3           those questions, and thanks for joining me on 

 4           some of the campus visits.

 5                  On the first point around buildings, 

 6           we should have a follow-up meeting and we can 

 7           talk through our kind of inventory.  You 

 8           know, there are certainly campuses like a 

 9           Potsdam where there are buildings that, given 

10           the reduced enrollment, they're just not in 

11           use.  And I think the challenge for those 

12           campuses, as you described, is they're 

13           spending money to heat them, to preserve 

14           them, but there's no students inside.  And so 

15           we've really got to tackle that.  And so I'd 

16           love to work with you on that.

17                  In terms of our plans for 

18           electrification, look, we want to get towards 

19           net-zero and help the state accomplish its 

20           goals.  We have 40 percent of the state's 

21           public buildings.  It will take investment 

22           over time.  That is not factored in.  The 

23           deficit I was describing over a 10-year 

24           period is really just about operating costs.  


                                                                   108

 1           But there is that capital need.

 2                  On Potsdam, we are committed to 

 3           Potsdam's long-term success.  And the plan in 

 4           place there is designed to ensure its 

 5           long-term success.

 6                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

 7                  To the Senate.

 8                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Senator O'Mara, 

 9           ranker.

10                  SENATOR O'MARA:  Good morning.  Thank 

11           you, gentlemen, for being here.

12                  I just want to follow up on that 

13           question because I don't think we got a 

14           direct answer on the community colleges and 

15           the support of a third, a third, a third.  

16           It's my understanding that the state share of 

17           their third is currently close to 

18           $100 million less than what the counties are 

19           contributing toward community colleges.  

20                  Can you address that?

21                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  This is exactly 

22           the reason for the proposal from the 

23           community college presidents for a 

24           $97 million increase in operating support, 


                                                                   109

 1           focused on workforce development because 

 2           that's an area for growth.

 3                  At the same time, I think one has to 

 4           balance that with the reality that the 

 5           community college funding floor is providing 

 6           an additional $85 million that wouldn't be 

 7           there if you ran the formula just based on 

 8           enrollment.  So I do think the state's making 

 9           an important investment with the floor that 

10           we want to make sure that's preserved, and 

11           look forward to talking further about ways to 

12           move towards investing in workforce 

13           development to increase the state's support.

14                  SENATOR O'MARA:  Thank you.  And I 

15           agree with you on the importance of the 

16           floor, and it's equally important for our 

17           secondary education system to have that 

18           floor, which has been taken away from them in 

19           this year's budget.  So I'm glad you're 

20           getting it, and we're going to work like hell 

21           to make sure that our secondary education 

22           gets that as well.

23                  On workforce development -- and I'm a 

24           strong proponent of that, and I applaud the 


                                                                   110

 1           efforts of CUNY and SUNY and the community 

 2           colleges in their efforts on that.  What 

 3           progress is being made -- you know, we have 

 4           ever-changing workforce needs, so curriculum 

 5           and programs are always changing.  And, you 

 6           know, I know government moves slow; academia 

 7           moves even slower.  

 8                  What is going on to maybe streamline 

 9           the process of getting programs approved so 

10           that when they're needed we can get these 

11           students right in the pipeline?

12                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Yeah, we have 

13           significantly accelerated the 

14           program-approval process at SUNY just over 

15           the year that I've been here.  I'd also say 

16           we are growing microcredentials, which were 

17           mentioned earlier, very quickly.  I think 

18           we're at 600 microcredentials now.  We have 

19           about 280 programs, larger microcredential 

20           programs that are going to be eligible for 

21           the TAP for non-credit workforce development 

22           programs across more than 30 campuses.  

23                  So we've got a lot of momentum on the 

24           workforce development side.  Green jobs, 


                                                                   111

 1           semiconductor industry, nursing and allied 

 2           health.  And I think our campuses would say 

 3           they would love more resources to try to grow 

 4           those more quickly.

 5                  For example, last year the simulation 

 6           bill allowed 30 percent of nursing hours to 

 7           be done through simulation.  But now we have 

 8           to invest in simulation labs, training of 

 9           staff, the lifelike mannequins that are used 

10           in those simulation labs.  And so resources 

11           to support those things would help us fulfill 

12           our workforce development mission.

13                  CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:  Can 

14           I add two things on the green side?

15                  SENATOR O'MARA:  Yeah.

16                  CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:  

17           Quickly.  (A), we -- for example, to your 

18           point, we've been doing market analysis to be 

19           able to determine any new programs that come 

20           on board, right, so we have data about what 

21           the markets need.  Particularly in the online 

22           space, because we don't want to have 

23           duplication and we want to have programs that 

24           are in high demand.


                                                                   112

 1                  And we began a program with our 

 2           community colleges of looking at our applied 

 3           associate's degrees, right, which are the 

 4           ones that you're supposed to have two years 

 5           and now transfer, so then they have deeper 

 6           partnerships with industry and a lot more 

 7           embedded apprenticeships, right, so we take a 

 8           look -- so what we're saying is this two-year 

 9           program will lead to a job that we can follow 

10           up with data and partnerships.

11                  SENATOR O'MARA:  Thank you for that.  

12           And I agree with that.

13                  On financial support for students in 

14           these microcredential programs or other 

15           workforce-type programs that aren't 

16           degree-ending -- and certainly I agree with 

17           you, we want to encourage students to move on 

18           beyond that certificate to get that degree.  

19           It's certainly better for them in the long 

20           run.  And I understand there's some efforts 

21           going on federally right now to get some 

22           Pell Grant availability to these programs.

23                  Is there room for us in New York where 

24           we should be expanding our financial 


                                                                   113

 1           assistance for those types of programs that 

 2           aren't degree programs?

 3                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Absolutely.  I 

 4           mean, you know, the TAP for non-credit 

 5           workforce programs is a great first step.  

 6           That's something we'd love to grow over time, 

 7           and we'd love to be able to provide more 

 8           assistance to those students as they move 

 9           into degree programs.  One of the things 

10           we're doing with that initiative is saying 

11           the work that is being done in that 

12           non-credit program, if they come into a 

13           degree program, will count for credits and 

14           get them started on their path to a degree.

15                  I'm very hopeful about the federal 

16           short-term Pell.  It has bipartisan support.  

17           I'm hopeful that we see that soon.

18                  SENATOR O'MARA:  Thank you.

19                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  We go to 

20           Assemblyman Eachus.

21                  ASSEMBLYMAN EACHUS:  Thank you, 

22           Madam Chair.  And welcome back.  

23                  A lot has already been covered, but 

24           there's a few things that I want to say.  The 


                                                                   114

 1           first thing I want to say is I think you two 

 2           are doing a great job.  The buildings did not 

 3           start falling apart just this last year, 

 4           okay?  The debt you inherited when you came 

 5           into this position are the things that we are 

 6           all talking about now.  So we need to 

 7           understand that that's the truth.

 8                  It was mentioned just recently -- 

 9           because I was going to disagree with one of 

10           my colleagues -- we are not fulfilling our 

11           obligation as a state with the one-third 

12           funding.  We are absolutely not.  And I will 

13           not be pleased and satisfied until the state 

14           picks up all the costs.  That's what I would 

15           be looking for.  

16                  I want to thank you for keeping the 

17           tuition rates flat.  That certainly is a big 

18           thing.  However, as we know, the fees have 

19           gone up.  And what I would like you -- and I 

20           know you took care of the fees for the 

21           graduate students.  Thank you for that.  But 

22           what I'd like you to remember is that the 

23           fees are very onerous, especially for the 

24           high-need areas -- when you're talking about 


                                                                   115

 1           science, the sciences, you're talking about 

 2           nursing and so on like that.  So, you know, 

 3           those are the people that are affected by it.  

 4                  And I know that there's no answer for 

 5           it unless we give you a huge influx of money.  

 6           But we need to keep that in mind.

 7                  Workforce development was just 

 8           mentioned.  I am for all workforce 

 9           development revenue going into our community 

10           colleges especially, because you have the 

11           accounting system that can tell us whether 

12           our goals are met with that money and if we 

13           are achieving those and what the real 

14           progress is.  So that's why -- and we're not 

15           hearing that, at least I'm not at this point 

16           and all.

17                  And then the last thing that I'd like 

18           to ask of you is it was mentioned and it has 

19           been talked about, affordable housing, and 

20           you said that there was a list and so on like 

21           that.  If that list could be sent to the 

22           chairs, who could distribute it to us so that 

23           we would know whether some of our campuses 

24           are going to be affected by that or not.  


                                                                   116

 1                  So there's not really a question 

 2           there, just a couple of statements.

 3                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  We'll follow up 

 4           on the housing point.  And really appreciate 

 5           your support on the workforce development 

 6           funding at community colleges.

 7                  ASSEMBLYMAN EACHUS:  Thank you.  

 8                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  To 

 9           the --

10                  CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:  I --

11                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Oh, I'm sorry.

12                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  He has time left, 

13           if you want to tell us something.

14                  CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:  All 

15           I wanted to say, because it's a theme that 

16           has come up in a couple of the commentaries 

17           about enrollment and community colleges.  I 

18           think that not having a standard method of 

19           supporting early colleges in terms of a 

20           funding formula for students to be able to do 

21           that is one thing in the state that we need 

22           to look at.  Because if we had a sustainable 

23           path for that, the main beneficiaries of that 

24           enrollment and those funds will be the 


                                                                   117

 1           community colleges.  

 2                  So I think that's another thing that 

 3           we need to put into the mix as we think about 

 4           funding and about the pipeline from K-12 to 

 5           our campuses.

 6                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

 7                  I think I am the last Senator, except 

 8           for Senator Stavisky's second round.

 9                  I want to just follow up on 

10           Assemblymember Gray's point.  So for years 

11           I've often said we would be much better off 

12           investing our money in colleges than prisons 

13           because some might drop out, but you have a 

14           much less recidivism rate when you have a 

15           higher education and more opportunity.  

16                  Do either of your universities track 

17           how many students actually do have criminal 

18           histories?  And is there any way to see 

19           whether in fact I'm right, college actually 

20           is a very effective model for helping people 

21           avoid lives of crime?

22                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  I don't know 

23           that we track it that way.  

24                  I will say that SUNY is the largest 


                                                                   118

 1           provider of higher education in prisons in 

 2           New York State.  And those programs -- I'd 

 3           love for you to join me at one of those 

 4           graduations.  They are changing people's 

 5           lives.  And so for so many students -- you 

 6           know, when I was in the Obama administration 

 7           and we launched Second Chance Pell to allow 

 8           Pell Grants to be used for folks who are 

 9           incarcerated, we called it the Second Chance 

10           Pell Program to emphasize the second chances.  

11                  But when you talk to the folks, they 

12           often didn't have a first chance.  And they 

13           will describe how the educational experience 

14           they are having while in prison is the first 

15           time they've had a real relationship with a 

16           faculty member where they've felt fully 

17           engaged intellectually.  And the recidivism 

18           rate for folks who get higher education while 

19           in prison is dramatically lower.  

20                  And so we need to do more of that.  

21           The restoration of TAP for incarcerated 

22           students was a very helpful step.  And now 

23           with Pell restoration, I think we have a 

24           chance to even grow our programs further.


                                                                   119

 1                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  And CUNY?  

 2                  CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:  I 

 3           don't know that we -- I mean, I will go 

 4           check, do we track it in the way that you 

 5           described.  

 6                  One of the great things to be in 

 7           higher ed is that if we have a question we 

 8           want answered, we have great faculty that can 

 9           figure out a way which we can give you a 

10           response to the question that you're 

11           addressing about that return on investment, 

12           right, that you posed.  So thank you for that 

13           very thoughtful question.  

14                  And I just want to echo that on our 

15           end too -- and particularly I think at CUNY 

16           the John Jay College of Criminal Justice has 

17           taken the lead to be working more closely 

18           with programs in the prison system.  So happy 

19           to report and give you some information about 

20           that.  

21                  But also happy to put some of the 

22           great minds that we have on both our campuses 

23           to get a sense of the question you're asking.

24                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.


                                                                   120

 1                  So for the SUNY chancellor, obviously 

 2           both houses of the Legislature are very 

 3           concerned about the SUNY Downstate storyline.  

 4           And I know that I had asked the mayor's 

 5           people when they were up what their 

 6           understanding of this was and the impact on 

 7           an H+H hospital or other hospitals in 

 8           Brooklyn, or even the -- what I felt is the 

 9           lack of regional planning for hospital care 

10           in the entire City of New York.

11                  I think what this Legislature needs to 

12           see are actually memorandums of understanding 

13           between what is expected of the H + H system 

14           as part of this deal so we actually can see 

15           this is what has been committed, this is what 

16           we can hold people accountable for.

17                  My staff responded to Gustavo and I 

18           after he asked some questions that we can't 

19           actually find where that capital money is in 

20           the budget.  So we also think we need much 

21           more specifics about the commitment in the 

22           Governor's budget of this money.  I don't 

23           know if it's supposed to be coming out of 

24           SUNY capital or some other capital.  But we 


                                                                   121

 1           really feel we need to understand because, 

 2           you know, we just can't operate -- as you've 

 3           heard, people don't feel that you've spoken 

 4           enough with the community and with the people 

 5           who should be at the table.  

 6                  But from my perspective it's, okay, 

 7           like where's the detail, where's the 

 8           confirmations?  And it's not uncommon for 

 9           government to create memorandas of 

10           understanding and everybody signs it and 

11           everybody looks at it and goes, okay, this is 

12           the deal for X number of years and this is 

13           what's going to happen.  And I think that 

14           that is at minimum what the representatives 

15           particularly from Brooklyn need.  

16                  But I'll tell you, you know, on 

17           Manhattan we're concerned about Brooklyn 

18           hospitals closing because it turns out, in 

19           the new recent Department of Health report, 

20           in various categories almost 50 percent of 

21           the people who live in Brooklyn come to 

22           Manhattan for hospital care.

23                  So if we've got Mount Sinai 

24           Beth Israel closing as the largest, most 


                                                                   122

 1           southern hospital in Manhattan -- which is 

 2           right on the L line and so is a direct path 

 3           for Brooklyn patients -- so if that's 

 4           closing -- and we're trying to stop that from 

 5           happening, but I don't know that we'll be 

 6           successful -- then that's got an impact.  So 

 7           all cross-over impact.  

 8                  So I just feel like everybody needs to 

 9           see exactly what the deals are going to be 

10           and what's the impact going to be, and be 

11           able to evaluate that in the context of the 

12           larger questions of hospital care, access to 

13           hospital care, who, what, where, why.  So I 

14           would really like this.  And, you know, I 

15           know again from just Manhattan, 

16           Bellevue Hospital knows it's going to have an 

17           enormous impact if we close Mount Sinai 

18           Beth Israel.  And I think they really 

19           recently said that the NYU, Langone and 

20           Bellevue hospitals are already overwhelmed in 

21           their ICUs and their EDs.  And so, you know, 

22           it's like chess pieces on the chessboard.  

23           They all interconnect.  So we're concerned 

24           about that.  


                                                                   123

 1                  So every time there's a Governor and 

 2           they cut the Opportunity Programs when the 

 3           Legislature puts the money back, both 

 4           chancellors say we love those programs.  But 

 5           do you?  I mean, would you ever put your own 

 6           money in?  Are these working?  Or are we all 

 7           just under the illusion that they're working 

 8           and then we put the money back?  

 9                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Let me tackle 

10           that Downstate point.  So yes, we look 

11           forward to having memorandums of agreement 

12           with Health + Hospitals specifying the exact 

13           inpatient service plan and likely something 

14           similar with other partner hospitals.  But 

15           that's all work ahead of us, based on 

16           community input.  

17                  The goal that we had and the Governor 

18           had was to set out a set of principles around 

19           the $300 million capital investment and --

20                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Okay, let's skip 

21           the SUNY Downstate because I only have three 

22           minutes left.

23                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Okay.  And then 

24           on the -- on EOP, yes, the programs are 


                                                                   124

 1           working.  Senator Jackson is an example.  The 

 2           programs are working and have been for a long 

 3           time.

 4                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Senator Jackson 

 5           would be working no matter what the -- 

 6                  (Overtalk; laughter.)

 7                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Fair enough.  

 8           Fair enough.  But he's an example of what we 

 9           hope for from the EOP programs.  

10                  You know, since I've arrived we've 

11           been trying to grow the EOP program across 

12           SUNY, and we saw a significant increase this 

13           year; hope to see another in the coming year.  

14           We are very supportive and are very eager to 

15           see additional resources there.  

16                  And we have, over time, tried to move 

17           resources to support EOP programs and are 

18           eager to see them continue to grow.

19                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  CUNY?  

20                  CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:  

21           Well, they're equally an important part of 

22           our campus life.  We are actually undergoing 

23           a review of those programs, looking at their 

24           outcomes and how they perform over time and 


                                                                   125

 1           how they compare with some of the other 

 2           programs that we have.  Again, to be able to 

 3           maximize learning from all our programs and 

 4           stretch every dollar to support more students 

 5           in a systemic way.  

 6                  And kudos to our University Provost 

 7           Wendy Hensel, who's leading that process 

 8           moving forward.

 9                  And we also try to do specific 

10           investments.  We started, for example -- 

11           we're going to have a Summer STEM Academy.  

12           We talk about not having enough women, poor, 

13           minority students taking advantage of STEM 

14           fields.  These programs are exactly where 

15           those students are.  And we are now being 

16           intentional about creating programs early on 

17           that are targeted for some of the areas where 

18           we want to see that larger level of 

19           representation.  So that's one of the things 

20           that we're doing with those dollars.  

21                  So the short answer to your question 

22           is -- and I know the commitment from 

23           Chancellor King.  I think that we embrace 

24           them.  They're a key part of our ecosystem.  


                                                                   126

 1           And we keep finding different ways to 

 2           leverage that funding to even get better 

 3           results.

 4                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

 5                  Obviously you won't have them today; 

 6           we haven't seen financial reports on the 

 7           SUNY Foundation or the CUNY Foundation in 

 8           quite a while, according to staff.  I would 

 9           like to get them on both of those, see where 

10           the money is and what it's being spent on.

11                  CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:  Yup.

12                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  And for some 

13           reason SUNY and CUNY are almost the only 

14           state-funded entities where the salaries of 

15           all your staff aren't posted somewhere.  Or 

16           is it just posted somewhere where I'm not 

17           finding it?

18                  CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:  

19           Well, people have a way of finding what my 

20           salary is.  Right?  So --

21                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  No, not you 

22           personally, but everyone.

23                  CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:  I'll 

24           double-check with my team about that and 


                                                                   127

 1           we'll get back to you.  And clearly there's a 

 2           way that -- I guess your point is about 

 3           transparencies, right?  So we'll take a look 

 4           at that and if it's not --

 5                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Yeah.  I mean, 

 6           there's a state website where you can look at 

 7           any state agency, any village or county, 

 8           school district, BOCES -- everything except 

 9           SUNY and CUNY.  I couldn't find them on it.  

10           So I think -- frankly, I think you should be 

11           on it, but I'll take it in any form, I guess.  

12                  CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:  So 

13           the phenomenal people that know more about 

14           these things than I do tell me that in our 

15           case it's there.  So we'll make sure that you 

16           get the link.

17                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Yeah, we'll 

18           follow up with you.

19                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

20                  Perfect timing.  Thank you very much.  

21                  Assembly.  

22                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  We go to 

23           Assemblywoman Simon.

24                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON:  Thank you.  


                                                                   128

 1                  Thank you both for your testimony.  

 2                  So first directed to CUNY.  You know, 

 3           microcredentials are increasingly attractive 

 4           to students and address workforce shortages.  

 5           And you have like the world's most creative 

 6           programming guy in President Hotzler at 

 7           City Tech.  And so I just want to encourage 

 8           CUNY to expand what it is they're doing and 

 9           work closely with that.

10                  The CUNY Reading Corps, which helps to 

11           lay the foundation for kids' reading and 

12           provides field experience to our education 

13           students, I would really love to see that 

14           expanded.  Love to see that marketed more.  

15           It really is part of the wave of the future.  

16           And I thank you both for your engagement with 

17           the science of reading and moving New York 

18           forward on that regard.

19                  SUNY, I have -- obviously Downstate is 

20           the issue of the day.  So there are two major 

21           concerns that I've sort of heard from folks.  

22                  One is that in your effort to preserve 

23           the Health Sciences Center, we really hear 

24           that operating a largely ambulatory care 


                                                                   129

 1           facility without an inpatient hospital is a 

 2           recipe for disaster.  I think you really need 

 3           to look carefully at that and address that 

 4           issue.  

 5                  You know, there's a real emphasis on 

 6           maternal and infant mortality, and Downstate 

 7           has the only Level IV NICU in the entire 

 8           borough.  And as you know, there's 

 9           2.6 million people in Brooklyn.  This is 

10           critical for the moms throughout Brooklyn, 

11           particularly moms of color.  And then 

12           obviously the community engagement and 

13           impacts on the community's health, which I 

14           think really needs to be assessed through a 

15           really robust public engagement process.  And 

16           I think we all stand ready to help facilitate 

17           that, to figure out what is that path 

18           forward.  You have a real problem, you need 

19           to do something.  What we do and how we do it 

20           I think is critical to its success.

21                  And then just to both of you, if I 

22           could just encourage everybody to support 

23           more money in the budget for disability 

24           accommodations for your students.


                                                                   130

 1                  Thank you.

 2                  CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:  So 

 3           let me --

 4                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON:  Yeah, please.

 5                  CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:  So, 

 6           A, we make it easy for all the elected 

 7           officials to know what our key asks are.  

 8           It's called the Gold Sheet.  If you don't 

 9           have one, make sure you get one by the end of 

10           the session.  And you will see, 

11           Assemblywoman Simon, that one of our top 

12           priorities is increased resources for 

13           students with disabilities in terms of the 

14           training, staffing, the technology, other 

15           support and adaptive services that are 

16           needed.  

17                  We'll be making a very comprehensive 

18           attempt at addressing this in ways that were 

19           not done before.  New faculty are getting 

20           orientation about this.  We train all the 

21           staff in our centers.  So we're making a big, 

22           big push to get state-of-the-art support in 

23           that arena.

24                  We need additional support, and we're 


                                                                   131

 1           asking for 4.7 in addition to do that.

 2                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON:  Thank you.  

 3                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Quickly I'll 

 4           just say all inpatient services will 

 5           continue.  And outpatient services will be 

 6           expanded.

 7                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON:  Thank you.

 8                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Senate.

 9                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

10                  Chair Toby Stavisky.

11                  SENATOR STAVISKY:  There we go.

12                  First, Chancellor Matos Rodríguez -- 

13           (holding up document) Senator Chu has hers -- 

14           we study these.  

15                  And Chancellor King, I thank you for 

16           your comments about the non-degree-granting 

17           programs.  I think that's extremely 

18           important.  

19                  And thank you for mentioning my 

20           legislation for the simulation.  Hopefully 

21           the State Education Department has issued the 

22           rules and regulations and are reviewing the 

23           programs at the various nursing schools in 

24           the state.


                                                                   132

 1                  Let me just ask a couple of questions 

 2           I did not have a chance to ask.  

 3                  We allowed both SUNY and CUNY last 

 4           year to increase tuition for out-of-state 

 5           students.  Has that affected enrollment at 

 6           either of your institutions?  First, 

 7           Chancellor King, I guess, has the larger 

 8           campuses -- more campuses.

 9                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Yeah, 

10           enrollment is up across the board and in 

11           every sector.  I'll check on the -- and get 

12           back to you on the number of out-of-state 

13           students and how that compares to last year.

14                  SENATOR STAVISKY:  Yeah, thank you.  

15                  And the same with -- 

16                  CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:  We 

17           did not raise tuition for out-of-state 

18           students, so I can get you that data.  We're 

19           looking at that issue year to year.  But I 

20           can get you the information. 

21                  SENATOR STAVISKY:  Thank you.  No, it 

22           was an option, a local option, so to speak.

23                  Second question, on the community 

24           colleges.  Can you tell us the effect of 


                                                                   133

 1           changing the base year for calculating the 

 2           floor?  Will that have any kind of effect on 

 3           the amount you receive?  Chancellor Matos 

 4           Rodríguez or Chancellor King or both.

 5                  CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:  

 6           We're here trying to go -- I mean, I guess, 

 7           A, it depends on what year you select, right, 

 8           in terms of the formula.

 9                  SENATOR STAVISKY:  The Governor 

10           selected one.  Would you suggest changing it 

11           to make it more -- 

12                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  I'll get back 

13           to you on what the implications would be of 

14           changing the year.  I do know that the floor 

15           for this year preserves $85 million that 

16           would otherwise be lost.

17                  CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:  Yes, 

18           it provides incredible stability at a time 

19           when we're still -- I mean, enrollment is 

20           beginning to pick up, but I think we want to 

21           make sure that if we're going to pivot in 

22           terms of the way that we're funding things, 

23           that we do it at a time when we feel that 

24           there's the largest level of stability 


                                                                   134

 1           possible.  

 2                  SENATOR STAVISKY:  Yeah.  And real 

 3           quick, I know you don't have the answer, but 

 4           I had legislation signed last year by the 

 5           Governor requiring campuses to report hate 

 6           crimes.  And if you would check your 

 7           websites, I would appreciate it.  The CUNY 

 8           one was a little confusing.

 9                  CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:  You 

10           mean the central office one, or one of the 

11           campuses one?  

12                  SENATOR STAVISKY:  It should be by 

13           campus.  I found it was really CUNY-wide.

14                  CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:  

15           Okay,  we'll look into that.  But we issued 

16           guidance right after the law came -- 

17                  SENATOR STAVISKY:  I know the 

18           guidance.  I'm talking about the actual 

19           attacks.

20                  Thank you.  

21                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

22                  Thank you, Toby.  

23                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  We go to 

24           Assemblywoman Hyndman.


                                                                   135

 1                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN:  Good morning.  

 2           It's still morning.  Thank you both for being 

 3           here.  A lot of my questions have been asked 

 4           by colleagues, and I do support the 

 5           assistance of SUNY Downstate.  

 6                  So my question is regarding vacancies 

 7           in the presidential positions at all of the 

 8           CUNY and SUNY campuses, and how do you 

 9           attract great presidents with declining 

10           enrollment, major capital needs?  And we're 

11           also dealing with a heavily politicized 

12           environment when it comes to college 

13           presidents.

14                  So for both of you, how do you attract 

15           great talent to the State of New York?

16                  CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:  So I 

17           guess the subtext of your question is that 

18           this is a time when being a campus president 

19           doesn't seem to be an extremely rewarding 

20           proposition.  And it's clearly a challenging 

21           position.  But this is clearly a privilege.  

22           What we get to do, to serve in this capacity 

23           is a privilege.  We go to bed at night 

24           knowing that we transform people's lives all 


                                                                   136

 1           across the state, and that's not a gift or a 

 2           privilege that everybody has.

 3                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN:  Chancellor 

 4           Matos Rodríguez, I will say that even, you 

 5           know, meeting with your staff yesterday and 

 6           hearing that your college and Queens College 

 7           are, you know, financially challenged, add 

 8           that on to what I asked.

 9                  CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:  And 

10           we have a bright new great leader at your 

11           college even with some of the fiscal 

12           challenges, President Schrader, right?  Well, 

13           she's interim; we have to do a search and do 

14           things by the book.  But even she was excited 

15           about the mission and what can be done at 

16           York.

17                  We have -- with your support and some 

18           of the measures that we're taking, we have a 

19           path forward to stabilizing the financial 

20           side of what we have to do at the university 

21           to provide the great experience that the 

22           students should have.  And the presidents are 

23           a key part of that leadership.  And I tell 

24           you that the mission of CUNY attracts 


                                                                   137

 1           individuals that want to be part of working 

 2           on behalf of those goals.

 3                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN:  If you could 

 4           get me how many vacancies.  Thank you, 

 5           Chancellor.

 6                  Chancellor King?  

 7                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  You know, we 

 8           have a handful of searches that are underway 

 9           now.  I will say I think the willingness of 

10           the Governor and the Legislature to invest 

11           stands out, compared to other states.  Last 

12           year's $163 million operating increase got 

13           the attention of the country, because other 

14           states are going backwards on public 

15           higher ed.  

16                  New York's commitment to diversity, 

17           equity and inclusion, the fact that we aren't 

18           sliding backwards the way Florida or Texas 

19           is, that has people's attention.  So we've 

20           had very strong pools.  I'll give you an 

21           example.  Our new SUNY Poly president was the 

22           provost at Worcester Polytechnic, one of the 

23           country's leading polytechnic institutions, 

24           and before that ran a center at Princeton.  


                                                                   138

 1           It was great to have him come.  We're excited 

 2           about his leadership there.  

 3                  And so we're seeing good response to 

 4           our searches.  We'll get you a list of the 

 5           current searches.

 6                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN:  Thank you.

 7                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

 8                  There are no more Senator questions, 

 9           so we're going to go through the 

10           Assemblymembers with questions.

11                  Let me just alert that we'll start 

12           with Assemblywoman Wallace, then 

13           Assemblywoman Forrest and Assemblywoman 

14           McMahon and then myself, and then 

15           Assemblywoman Fahy for seconds.  So somehow 

16           the women are at the end of the list today.

17                  (Laughter.)

18                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALLACE:  Well, good 

19           morning.  Thank you so much for your 

20           testimony today.

21                  First I just want to thank you for 

22           your comments about community colleges being 

23           vital workforce development tools.  We 

24           recognize that and agree with the comments 


                                                                   139

 1           that have already been made that we need to 

 2           do more to invest and stabilize our community 

 3           colleges.

 4                  I know, Chancellor King, you and I had 

 5           a private conversation about streamlining the 

 6           certification process, being able to get 

 7           those certifications more quickly and kind of 

 8           cut through the red tape so that we can 

 9           attract students, make them more nimble and 

10           then create scaffolding programs, scaffolding 

11           the non-degree with the degree.

12                  And, you know, as we're thinking about 

13           how to do that, I would encourage you to 

14           think about creative ways to give credit for 

15           life experiences.  For example, you know, I 

16           have a bill about veterans' service, a bill 

17           about EMS and firefighter service.  You know, 

18           there are great experiences that they bring, 

19           and then kind of draw those people in to 

20           getting certifications that will get them 

21           farther along in life.  

22                  Likewise, when you talk about, you 

23           know, whether somebody is a plumber, they 

24           want to run a business, things like that, 


                                                                   140

 1           they need business skills, they might need 

 2           marketing skills.

 3                  And so that, you know, I would 

 4           encourage you to think creatively about that, 

 5           and I would love to work with you on that.

 6                  With regard -- the other thing I 

 7           wanted to touch on is the Distressed Campus 

 8           Fund and sort of where we are with those 

 9           campuses.  As you know, every state dollar 

10           that's invested in SUNY leverages at least $5 

11           in a return on investment.  In Western 

12           New York alone, SUNY campuses pump about 

13           $3.7 billion into our regional economy -- and 

14           that's the entire Western New York region, 

15           not just the Buffalo area.  They're a magnet 

16           for attracting people to move to a region -- 

17           I'm a good example, I grew up on Long Island, 

18           I now live and represent Buffalo and raise my 

19           family there, right?  So they're a magnet for 

20           attracting people to different areas of the 

21           state.  And we know that SUNY students stay 

22           in the state and they work in the state.  And 

23           that's why it's so critically important to 

24           invest in our SUNY system.


                                                                   141

 1                  And so that's why this Legislature 

 2           allocated money for the Distressed Campus 

 3           Fund.  And I was disappointed to see that not 

 4           all of the money went to the schools that 

 5           were most -- it didn't seem to be allocated 

 6           to the schools that were most in dire 

 7           financial need.  Some of the money went to 

 8           schools that maybe didn't need it as much.

 9                  So I guess my question is, how much of 

10           that remains?  And, you know, I was -- we did 

11           have a provision in last year's budget saying 

12           that the schools, to your point earlier, need 

13           to sort of think about how to rightsize 

14           themselves and to increase enrollment.  But 

15           we didn't give them the chance to do that 

16           before we did some of these cuts.  So I urge 

17           you think about refraining from any further 

18           cuts to these campuses until we give those 

19           schools an opportunity to come up with those 

20           plans.

21                  And I guess I spoke too long.

22                  (Laughter.)

23                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  So I think, you 

24           know, you'll be sending us some information 


                                                                   142

 1           that we'll be able to share with all of our 

 2           colleagues here.

 3                  Next, Assemblywoman Forrest.

 4                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FORREST:  Thank you 

 5           both, Chancellors, for being here.  

 6                  My first question is to 

 7           Chancellor King.  In March 2020 the previous 

 8           governor declared Downstate a COVID-only 

 9           hospital, forcing them to suspend all 

10           revenue-raising services, leading to a 

11           deficit of $160 million.  Has the state done 

12           anything to address that debt?  

13                  And as chancellor, have you sought 

14           federal funding or other funding streams to 

15           support Downstate?

16                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  So, look, 

17           I'm -- 

18                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FORREST:  Has the state 

19           given you assistance with that $160 million?  

20                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  As I mentioned 

21           earlier -- two things.  One is I want to 

22           express my personal gratitude and the 

23           system's gratitude for what folks at 

24           Downstate did during the COVID era.  I will 


                                                                   143

 1           say last year -- 

 2                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FORREST:  Did the state 

 3           give you money?  

 4                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  -- we asked for 

 5           -- I don't know what money was given in 2020.  

 6           I can get back to you on that.

 7                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FORREST:  Okay, you can 

 8           get back to me, no problem.

 9                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  I started last 

10           January, and one of the first things you'll 

11           recall that I did was to talk with many of 

12           the Brooklyn delegation members about the --

13                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FORREST:  And we heard, 

14           and we spoke.

15                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  -- about the 

16           needs at Downstate and the impending 

17           deficit -- 

18                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FORREST:  Have you 

19           sought out federal funding and other funding 

20           streams to support SUNY?  Have you put in 

21           applications to the feds for helping?

22                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  SUNY Downstate 

23           gets now significant federal dollars --

24                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FORREST:  How much?  


                                                                   144

 1                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  -- focused on 

 2           research.  I can get you the precise number.

 3                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FORREST:  No problem.  

 4           Please send it to the chairs.

 5                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  But the 

 6           challenges, the needs are for operating 

 7           support and for long-term capital support.

 8                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FORREST:  Right.  Right.

 9                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  And we need the 

10           state's help to address both of those in 

11           order to save the hospital, which is our 

12           goal.

13                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FORREST:  And I agree 

14           with you.  

15                  So this is the first that I'm hearing 

16           that you're actually saying save the 

17           hospital.  What I heard before was a 

18           reimagining plan, reimagining meaning an 

19           emphasis on the health -- on the health 

20           education portion and not the hospital.

21                  So I have to be very frank.  I have 

22           heard my colleagues' questions, and I have 

23           been disappointed by the answers to the 

24           situation at downstate.  I will tell you as a 


                                                                   145

 1           nurse, as a patient at Downstate, as a 

 2           Black mama who knows Downstate has the one 

 3           Level IV NICU in the whole of Brooklyn.  

 4                  So to me, when we're talking about 

 5           maternal health, when I think about my next 

 6           child, I am cringing at my options in my own 

 7           district and in Brooklyn that I live at.

 8                  And so you keep on bringing up the 

 9           hospitals surrounding.  You keep on -- have 

10           you followed your residents to Kings County?  

11           Have you followed your residents to Maimo?  

12           Do you know what it looks like?  Because I'll 

13           tell you as a patient, as someone who's 

14           worked there, I don't know what inch or 

15           square feet you're talking about.  

16                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Assembly -- 

17                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FORREST:  I'm sorry, I 

18           get very impassioned.  I'm so sorry. 

19                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Assemblywoman, 

20           thank you.  We're going to move on.

21                  There may be some answers you'll be 

22           sending in regard to Assemblywoman Phara's 

23           questions, Phara Fawcett's {sic} questions.  

24                  Assemblywoman McMahon.


                                                                   146

 1                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN McMAHON:  Thank you, 

 2           Chair Weinstein.  

 3                  Good morning, Chancellors.  Thank you 

 4           so much for your testimony.  It's been a 

 5           really interesting discussion so far.  

 6                  Chancellor King, I'd like to thank you 

 7           for your commitment to the University 

 8           Centers.  I'm particularly thrilled that UB 

 9           has been chosen as the host of the Empire AI 

10           Consortium.  We're really excited about that.

11                  My concern is -- today is with the 

12           SUNY colleges.  And my colleague 

13           Assemblymember Wallace went into a lot the 

14           reasons why they're so important as economic 

15           drivers in these smaller rural communities.  

16           And I know, even representing a district 

17           outside of Buffalo, I have constituents who 

18           work at Fredonia, who commute down there to 

19           teach.  

20                  And you went into a lot of detail 

21           about Potsdam, but I'm kind of wondering 

22           about Fredonia and some of these other 

23           colleges.  Thank you to your commitment to 

24           keeping them all open and viable.  But what 


                                                                   147

 1           is the situation with Fredonia, for instance?  

 2           Is it similar to Potsdam, the enrollment 

 3           drop, the vacant buildings?  Or my question 

 4           really is if we're going to be cutting 

 5           programs, can we really expect these places 

 6           to rebound in enrollment when we're limiting 

 7           student options?  

 8                  So I'm wondering kind of particularly 

 9           about Fredonia, but the colleges in general.

10                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Yeah, I mean 

11           Fredonia is a good example of where -- really 

12           at all of our campuses we have to constantly 

13           continuously look at the mix of program 

14           offerings and make sure we're responding to 

15           student demand.  That means sometimes there 

16           are programs that don't have students 

17           enrolled in them that we need to reevaluate, 

18           and there are places where we could grow.

19                  So it's true, Fredonia is making 

20           adjustments to programs that have very little 

21           enrollment.  But they are also growing 

22           programs where there's demand.  And so they 

23           got last year I believe a 25 percent increase 

24           in state support.  So a lot of additional 


                                                                   148

 1           state dollars, but it doesn't change that 

 2           they need to continue to adjust their 

 3           programs to match where there is student 

 4           interest.  They've lost, over a 10-year 

 5           period, more than 40 percent of their 

 6           enrollment.  We think they can be sustainable 

 7           at the size they are now, and there are some 

 8           opportunities to grow.  And that's why 

 9           they're adding some programs in some areas 

10           where there's real student demand and need in 

11           the region.  

12                  So I'm very hopeful about the future 

13           of Fredonia based on the plan that the 

14           president and leadership team have put in 

15           place.

16                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN McMAHON:  Do you know 

17           what the enrollment is there, approximately?  

18                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  I'll get you 

19           the exact -- it's gone from I think over 

20           5,000 to around 3400, something like that.

21                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN McMAHON:  So it's not 

22           quite as small as Potsdam.

23                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Yeah.  Yeah.

24                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN McMAHON:  Thank you.  I 


                                                                   149

 1           appreciate it.

 2                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  So I guess it's 

 3           time for me to ask a few questions.

 4                  You know, so -- Chancellor King, we 

 5           spoke -- we spoke previously about Downstate.  

 6           I know you grew up in Flatlands.  You know 

 7           the neighborhood, you know that so many 

 8           people from Flatlands, these 

 9           Flatbush-surrounding areas, work at the 

10           hospital and also at Downstate.  I'm so glad 

11           it's back to being called Downstate.  There 

12           was that brief Brooklyn Science, none of us 

13           knew what that really was.  

14                  So there really seems to be a 

15           disconnect between the talking about 

16           community involvement and community plan and 

17           then just listening, both here and other 

18           places, to my colleagues' concerns, the 

19           employees' concerns about not being involved, 

20           not knowing what the direction is.  I echo 

21           some of the concerns Senator Krueger raised, 

22           and not knowing what Health + Hospitals' 

23           agreement would be with Downstate, whether 

24           this new Downstate hospital would be a wing 


                                                                   150

 1           at County, would be sharing an emergency 

 2           room, have its own access -- there's just a 

 3           lot of detail that we don't know.  Maybe it's 

 4           okay.  But right now, all we have are 

 5           questions and concerns.

 6                  And as my colleague Assemblywoman 

 7           Forrest mentioned, all of us are concerned 

 8           not only just in Brooklyn, but throughout the 

 9           state with maternal health and particularly 

10           maternal health of Black women.  And Central 

11           Brooklyn seems to be having a lot of issues, 

12           and Downstate is a place that people look to.  

13           So the more detail we can get about the 

14           relationship, the planned relationship 

15           between Downstate and Kings County, I think 

16           will go a long way to coming up with 

17           hopefully a joint plan -- 

18                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Exactly.

19                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  -- by SUNY and 

20           the community.  You know, I think the -- 

21           certainly from your part, I get the sense 

22           that you want Downstate to continue as a 

23           hospital, you want -- and you want the school 

24           to continue to produce students who stay in 


                                                                   151

 1           New York State, stay in Brooklyn, serve 

 2           communities that are underserved.

 3                  So the more that we can continue this 

 4           conversation and work together -- the 

 5           community, the legislators -- I think that we 

 6           can hopefully get to a position.  It is 

 7           disturbing that during COVID, Downstate was 

 8           the COVID hospital.  It saved many lives in 

 9           Brooklyn.  And we did not get the 

10           reimbursement back that we should have.  Our 

11           employees, the employees there didn't 

12           initially get those kind of extra payments 

13           that medical facilities at other hospitals 

14           had, and we lost some good people because 

15           they were poached away by other states and 

16           other systems.  

17                  So to the extent we continue those 

18           conversations, that would be very positive.  

19           So there's no question there, but just, you 

20           know, emphasis.  

21                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  I'm very 

22           committed, very committed to that.  And, you 

23           know, I think the Governor and we wanted to 

24           lay out a set of principles, including the 


                                                                   152

 1           Governor's willingness to make an investment 

 2           that hasn't been made in decades as a 

 3           starting place for a conversation with the 

 4           community to develop these details, and with 

 5           staff and faculty.

 6                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  And we look, you 

 7           know, forward to having a more drilled-down 

 8           discussion of where the funding is and how 

 9           it's going to be spent.  

10                  And then both the question to 

11           Chancellor Rodríguez and yourself, as part of 

12           the Executive Budget there's a proposal to 

13           allow student data to be shared from SUNY and 

14           CUNY for educational purposes.  And what kind 

15           of data do the systems want, and how would 

16           this data be used and why is it needed?  

17                  CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:  

18           Well, we know from experience how important 

19           in the work that we have done, for example, 

20           with the department, the New York City Public 

21           Schools, to have data-sharing agreements that 

22           facilitate a whole range of transactions, 

23           policy work and activities.  And that being 

24           done with all the safety, privacy and 


                                                                   153

 1           guardrails, right, that are appropriate.

 2                  In higher ed, folks are very mobile.  

 3           They might be gone at a SUNY campus, being 

 4           from the city, they then come back.  So all 

 5           that movement.  If we had better ways to be 

 6           able to share that data, we will be more 

 7           nimble and better equipped at making 

 8           large-scale policy decisions.  So I think 

 9           that that is something that, you know, with 

10           all the appropriate guardrails, is incredibly 

11           desirable.

12                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  The only thing 

13           I would add is, you know, even between our 

14           systems, as those students move, we want to 

15           make sure that they're able to transfer their 

16           credits, for example, that they're able to 

17           get good advising around course selection.  

18           And so things that make it easier for us, 

19           with all the privacy protections, to be able 

20           to share data will allow us to serve students 

21           better.

22                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Great.  Thank 

23           you.

24                  So now we'll go to our Higher Ed chair 


                                                                   154

 1           for a second round of three minutes.

 2                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  Thank you, Chair.  

 3           And I'll try to be very brief.  

 4                  Just a couple of things that we did 

 5           not get to.  Thank you, both chancellors.

 6                  Just a couple of quick comments on the 

 7           EOP.  I want to echo the comments I think of 

 8           Senator Krueger, as well as the interest on 

 9           the CUNY and SUNY Foundation information 

10           would be terrific.  Also want to echo the 

11           comments of our ranking member on early 

12           college high schools and the tremendous 

13           importance.  And I'm also just thrilled today 

14           to hear all the comments about community 

15           colleges.  They are so much a part of our 

16           future.  And as you yourself said, 

17           Chancellor, Micron alone is a perfect example 

18           of that.

19                  So -- and really appreciate as well 

20           the comments on TAP.  Because TAP, TAP, TAP, 

21           as I keep saying.  It will be essential to 

22           turning around the enrollment numbers, 

23           especially on some of the microcredentials 

24           that we also heard a lot about today.


                                                                   155

 1                  So two questions.  The SUNY Downstate, 

 2           I think what you are hearing -- and I 

 3           mentioned it in my previous 10 minutes, but 

 4           what you are hearing is a fear and a real 

 5           commitment of members, particularly on the 

 6           ambulatory services.  I know you're having 

 7           conversations.  We need to accelerate those 

 8           conversations.  I know that this is more in 

 9           the Health Committee bucket, if you will.  

10           And we will continue to talk with our 

11           colleague Chairwoman Paulin on that, and have 

12           already started those conversations.  

13                  So I'm not sure if you have anything 

14           more to add there, and I want to save a 

15           minute there for AI.  So if there's anything 

16           more in terms of what we need to do.  I mean, 

17           the good news here is there are eyes on it.  

18           Because I have heard from all that this has 

19           been decades of neglect at the SUNY Downstate 

20           Hospital.  So I guess that's the good news.  

21                  The bad news is we want to make sure, 

22           as Chair Weinstein just mentioned, we have 

23           that attention given on what happened during 

24           COVID.


                                                                   156

 1                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Yeah, look.  I 

 2           would just underscore our commitment to 

 3           preserving the inpatient services, expanding 

 4           outpatient services, and trying to improve 

 5           healthcare in the community.  That is where 

 6           our focus is, and we want to do that in 

 7           partnership.

 8                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  Terrific.  

 9           Terrific.  And again, both of you 

10           mentioned -- I'm switching to AI, the 

11           artificial intelligence.  

12                  Just as early investments 10, 15 years 

13           ago led to us becoming the epicenter of the 

14           country, if not the world, on the 

15           semiconductor industry -- and if we hadn't 

16           had the original SUNY Poly or CSNE, we 

17           wouldn't have had Global Foundries, and I 

18           don't think we would have Micron.  So it will 

19           transform at least the upstate economy if not 

20           more.  We want to do the same on AI.  And I'm 

21           thrilled that both SUNY and CUNY are involved 

22           in that.  

23                  Chancellor, could you talk about how 

24           more of SUNY will be involved?  We understand 


                                                                   157

 1           the supercomputer is going to U Buffalo.  

 2           I've got my purple on for UAlbany.  Can you, 

 3           in eight seconds -- sorry.  Go ahead.  

 4                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  UAlbany has 

 5           been doing a great job of adding faculty and 

 6           AI, and I expect UAlbany, Binghamton, 

 7           Stony Brook and Buffalo all to play a major 

 8           role.  They're all founding members of the 

 9           consortium for Empire AI.

10                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  Thank you.  Thank 

11           you, Chancellor.  And Donna Lupardo has 

12           mentioned it as well.

13                  Thank you, Chair.

14                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

15                  So as Senator Krueger has said 

16           previously, we haven't finished all our 

17           questions, but we've run out of time for 

18           members to ask them.

19                  So we thank you for being here, both 

20           of you for being here, and look forward to 

21           hearing -- getting some feedback on some of 

22           the issues that were raised, or perhaps you 

23           didn't have -- either of you did not have the 

24           opportunity to fully respond to.


                                                                   158

 1                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Thank you very 

 2           much.  

 3                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  And we appreciate 

 4           you, but we also appreciate getting the 

 5           responses in writing to both Ways and Means 

 6           and Finance, and then we can share it with 

 7           all the members.

 8                  SUNY CHANCELLOR KING:  Thank you.

 9                  CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:  We 

10           will.  Thank you.

11                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

12           Thank you.

13                  So I would just request that people -- 

14           people who are leaving leave quietly.  If 

15           members need to have further conversations, 

16           you take those outside the hearing room.  

17                  And our next witness, a former 

18           colleague, Dr. Guillermo Linares, the 

19           president of the New York State Higher 

20           Education Services Corporation.

21                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Please take your 

22           conversations out to the hall so that we can 

23           start the next panel.

24                  (Pause.)


                                                                   159

 1                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Chancellor King 

 2           and -- both chancellors, in the hall.  

 3           Assemblymembers can follow you if they want.  

 4           And Senators.  They can all follow you.

 5                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Just a minute, 

 6           as some people continue to exit the room.  

 7                  Okay, so now you can begin.  Thank 

 8           you.  

 9                  HESC PRESIDENT LINARES:  Good 

10           afternoon, Chairs Krueger, Weinstein, 

11           Stavisky and Fahy, and my former colleagues 

12           in the Senate and Assembly, thank you for the 

13           opportunity to speak with you today about the 

14           2024-'25 Executive Budget recommendations for 

15           HESC.  I am Dr. Guillermo Linares, president 

16           of the Higher Education Services Corporation, 

17           and I'm pleased to be joined by HESC 

18           Executive Vice President Doris Gonzalez.

19                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Guillermo, can 

20           you just pull the mic a little closer to you?

21                  HESC PRESIDENT LINARES:  Sure.

22                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

23                  HESC PRESIDENT LINARES:  New York 

24           continues to be at the forefront of creating 


                                                                   160

 1           opportunities for students to pursue higher 

 2           education and invest in programs that ensure 

 3           every student has access to a quality 

 4           education.  From financial aid to student 

 5           support services and diversity programs, 

 6           Governor Hochul is committed to helping 

 7           students succeed in college and beyond.  

 8                  HESC, New York State's student 

 9           financial aid agency, administers more than 

10           two dozen state-funded grant, scholarship, 

11           and loan forgiveness programs.  During the 

12           2022-'23 academic year, these programs 

13           disbursed financial assistance to 

14           approximately 300,000 students.  

15                  New York's generous investment in 

16           student financial aid, including TAP and 

17           Excelsior Scholarships, helped over 176,000 

18           New York State residents attend SUNY and CUNY 

19           tuition-free in academic year '22-'23, with 

20           52 percent at SUNY state-operated campuses 

21           and 67 percent at CUNY senior colleges.  In 

22           the same academic year, more than 

23           65,000 students at private universities, 

24           colleges and business schools received TAP.  


                                                                   161

 1                  Governor Hochul's 2024-'25 

 2           Executive Budget demonstrates a firm 

 3           commitment to providing access to 

 4           post-secondary education for all students 

 5           throughout New York.  The Governor's budget 

 6           proposal includes strategic investments in 

 7           higher education programs aimed at increasing 

 8           access to high-quality and affordable higher 

 9           education options across the state.  

10                  In the two budgets enacted under 

11           Governor Hochul, state operating funding for 

12           higher education has increased by a total of 

13           $1.07 billion -- that is, 17 percent -- 

14           growing from $6.15 billion to $7.22 billion.  

15           The 2024-'25 Executive Budget provides 

16           $967.9 million for HESC financial aid 

17           programs, including $764 million for TAP.  

18                  Last year we proudly celebrated TAP's 

19           50th anniversary.  Since inception, TAP has 

20           provided nearly $30 billion to help more than 

21           6 million New Yorkers who have pursued a 

22           college education.  During the 2022-'23 

23           school year alone, TAP provided over 

24           $663 million in tuition assistance to more 


                                                                   162

 1           than 230,000 students in New York.  

 2                  The Executive Budget continues full 

 3           support of the historic expansion of TAP, 

 4           expanding the program guidelines to include 

 5           students who were previously ineligible.  Let 

 6           me explain.  

 7                  In the 2022-'23 budget, 

 8           Governor Hochul expanded TAP for more 

 9           students who were unable to attend college 

10           full-time.  The legislation removed the 

11           previous requirement that students had to be 

12           enrolled full-time for two years before 

13           switching to part-time to be eligible for 

14           TAP.  Now any student attending SUNY, CUNY, 

15           and not-for-profit independent 

16           degree-granting colleges on a part-time 

17           basis, taking a minimum of six credits, can 

18           benefit from TAP.  

19                  Additionally, in order to help 

20           New Yorkers develop or gain new skills in 

21           advancing industries, TAP was expanded to 

22           part-time students enrolled at eligible 

23           non-degree workforce credential programs at 

24           participating SUNY and CUNY schools.  


                                                                   163

 1           Students attending non-degree programs at 

 2           SUNY or CUNY community colleges in the 

 3           Spring 2024 semester can access TAP.  

 4                  By welcoming thousands of additional 

 5           students, colleges can tap into demographics 

 6           and bridge gaps within their student 

 7           population.  This influx can help bolster 

 8           enrollment figures, a critical metric for the 

 9           stability and prosperity of any educational 

10           institution.  

11                  In the 2022-'23 academic term, TAP 

12           funding eligibility for incarcerated 

13           individuals was restored.  This benefit, 

14           denied to this community of students since 

15           1995, now offers them an opportunity to 

16           access TAP for their post-secondary education 

17           and enables them to expand their employment 

18           prospects and future success upon release.  

19                  The Free Application for Federal 

20           Student Aid -- FAFSA -- is the gateway for 

21           students to determine their eligibility for 

22           federal financial assistance, which 

23           encompasses grants, educational loans, and 

24           work-study programs.  It is also a 


                                                                   164

 1           prerequisite for many of New York State's 

 2           financial aid programs.  

 3                  For New York State, encouraging high 

 4           school seniors to complete their FAFSA forms 

 5           is not only an educational priority, but also 

 6           a significant financial one.  In 2022, almost 

 7           50 percent of high school seniors in New York 

 8           did not complete their FAFSA, missing their 

 9           chance to attain crucial funding.  This lack 

10           of FAFSA completion has resulted in a 

11           staggering $200 million in Pell Grant funds 

12           left on the table.  

13                  Pell Grants, designed to assist 

14           low-income college students, can play a 

15           pivotal role in a family's ability to afford 

16           post-secondary education.  Without completing 

17           the FAFSA, students forfeit valuable 

18           opportunities to receive a Pell Grant or 

19           other federal and New York State financial 

20           aid -- a loss for the students and a missed 

21           opportunity for communities that could 

22           benefit from a more educated workforce.  

23                  The 2024-'25 Executive Budget requires 

24           school districts ensure that every 


                                                                   165

 1           high school senior or the parent certifies to 

 2           having completed the FAFSA or the New York 

 3           State DREAM Act or, in the alternative, signs 

 4           a waiver form indicating that they are aware 

 5           of but choose not to fill out the FAFSA.  

 6                  It is important to note -- and I want 

 7           to highlight this -- that completing the 

 8           FAFSA is not a graduation requirement, and 

 9           all individual students will still be able to 

10           graduate regardless of whether they complete 

11           the FAFSA.  

12                  Financial support can only reach those 

13           who apply for it.  To that end, HESC has 

14           embarked on a comprehensive outreach 

15           campaign, NY FAFSA READY, to educate students 

16           on, and to assist students with completing, 

17           their FAFSA and TAP applications.  This 

18           initiative includes events to assist students 

19           with completing their FAFSA or TAP 

20           applications, social media campaigns to 

21           ensure students and their families are aware 

22           of the benefits of completing the FAFSA, and 

23           the creation of a one-stop hub where 

24           students, parents, and counselors can access 


                                                                   166

 1           valuable information.  

 2                  Already, this academic year, HESC has 

 3           conducted 54 events and we have another 

 4           28 virtual events scheduled through March and 

 5           plan to continue to add more in the coming 

 6           months.  We encourage students and parents to 

 7           visit the hesc.ny.gov website and go to sign 

 8           up and get text messages so they can be 

 9           notified about upcoming informational 

10           sessions.  

11                  HESC has also undergone changes in our 

12           mission, which we are very proud about.  In 

13           December 2021 HESC terminated its role with 

14           the U.S. Department of Education as the 

15           guaranty agency administering the Federal 

16           Family Education Loan Program, FFELP, on 

17           behalf of New York State.  The Trellis 

18           Company was designated as the successor, and 

19           in May 2023, the portfolio was transferred to 

20           Trellis without adverse impact on borrowers.  

21                  With this transition, we can now focus 

22           our resources fully on supporting New Yorkers 

23           in their pursuit of state financial aid 

24           awards to fund their college education.  We 


                                                                   167

 1           are in the process of updating our website 

 2           and have embarked on fully modernizing our 

 3           financial aid system so students can easily 

 4           find the information they need and seamlessly 

 5           apply for grants and scholarships.  

 6                  In closing, under Governor Hochul's 

 7           leadership New York State has shown its 

 8           resolute commitment to expanding access to 

 9           high-quality, affordable higher education for 

10           every student in New York who desires it. 

11           This critical investment in higher education 

12           programs will go a long way in making 

13           post-secondary education achievable for every 

14           student who dreams of obtaining a college 

15           degree in New York State.

16                  I thank Governor Hochul for ensuring 

17           students receive the support they deserve, 

18           and State Operations Director Kathryn Garcia, 

19           Deputy Secretary of Education Maria 

20           Fernandez, and New York State Budget 

21           Director Blake Washington, for their 

22           continued support and collaboration.  

23                  Thank you, and I will be happy to 

24           answer any questions you may have.  


                                                                   168

 1                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

 2           much.  

 3                  Our first questioner will be Pat Fahy, 

 4           10 minutes, Assembly Education chair.

 5                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  Thank you.  Thank 

 6           you, Chair.

 7                  And wonderful to see you.  Thank you 

 8           for the testimony today.

 9                  I have a few questions.  And I want to 

10           start by -- President Linares, I want to 

11           start by saying thank you for the help from 

12           you and your team with pulling together a 

13           number of estimates and information as we 

14           have launched a TAP campaign, as you know, 

15           "Turn on the TAP," to really begin to turn 

16           around the numbers, a number of which you 

17           just referenced.  

18                  And I'm going to start with a question 

19           on that.  I have a number of questions.  But 

20           I think it is important that TAP in 

21           two thousand -- well, before 2011, in its 

22           first 40 -- almost 40 years, TAP followed 

23           tuition.  So the cost of SUNY or CUNY tuition 

24           was essentially covered by TAP for those who 


                                                                   169

 1           qualified.  And in its first 25 years or 

 2           more, it did serve not only low-income 

 3           families but essentially was serving 

 4           middle-income families.  But as you know, for 

 5           25 years now the income threshold in which 

 6           families qualify has not increased from 

 7           beyond the $80,000 where people tap out or 

 8           families tap out, if you will.  

 9                  So we definitely want to work to see 

10           how we can recouple that.  And as you know, 

11           we have circulated an entire package.  Many 

12           members sitting here have proposals on that.  

13                  So if I can start with the question 

14           this year, my understanding, if we had just 

15           tied where TAP would be from about 2011 or 

16           so, we would be spending about almost $1.3 

17           billion on it.  Instead, I understand the 

18           Executive Budget is requesting yet another 

19           decrease in that of 132 million, which brings 

20           the program fund request at 764 million.  

21                  Can you explain the decrease to us?  

22           Is that all tied to enrollment?  Which -- you 

23           also just mentioned FAFSA.  We are just 

24           thrilled to see the Governor include the 


                                                                   170

 1           near-mandate, if you will, to really 

 2           accelerate the use of FAFSA.  So I know we're 

 3           all working together to do that.

 4                  But what is this cut tied to, 

 5           President Guillermo?

 6                  HESC PRESIDENT LINARES:  Well, I want 

 7           to start by saying that we look very closely 

 8           at the projection in terms of enrollment that 

 9           we anticipate for the next fiscal year.  And 

10           the revenues that have been designated we're 

11           confident will allow us to cover the 

12           enrollment that we will be having.  So we 

13           believe that we are maintaining ourselves 

14           whole with that at this point, given the 

15           projections that we have for the coming year.

16                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  So if I can 

17           further ask a little bit more on that, the 

18           projections -- we just heard both chancellors 

19           before us, we plan to hear from CICU later 

20           today.  At least both SUNY and CUNY 

21           chancellors talked about the enrollment 

22           increases.  While slight, we did see that 

23           bump up, and we're very proud of that because 

24           we had record investments in operating 


                                                                   171

 1           dollars last year due to the work of many 

 2           folks here, including myself.  

 3                  So I understand it was the first 

 4           significant increase since 2007.  Are you 

 5           still saying, even with those enrollment 

 6           increases, we're still going to see a 

 7           decrease in TAP take-up rates?

 8                  HESC PRESIDENT LINARES:  In the early 

 9           conversations we've had with the Division of 

10           Budget, we feel confident that we're going to 

11           be able to fulfill the commitment of 

12           providing the tuition to all of the students 

13           that will be enrolling for next year.

14                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  Okay.  All right.  

15           As you know, many of us are really working to 

16           turn that around.  And you heard a lot of 

17           questions on that -- microcredentials, 

18           raising the income floor.  There's a whole 

19           host -- one bill alone, Assemblywoman Clark, 

20           and I think there's another, and 

21           Senator Stavisky have legislation just to 

22           raise that income threshold.  

23                  Your estimates, which again were very 

24           helpful, would say as many as 25,000 


                                                                   172

 1           additional students might benefit by that.  

 2           So we are quite determined to try to address 

 3           the needs of students and families.  Eighty 

 4           thousand was a big number in 2011 or earlier.  

 5           It's certainly not -- not serving the number 

 6           of families we need to.  So we do want to 

 7           work with you on that.

 8                  Can I switch to another issue -- again 

 9           where we have lots of legislation, including 

10           my own -- is to better serve independent 

11           students.  Right now TAP has been really 

12           known for serving dependent students.  We 

13           have legislation to increase the threshold 

14           for independent students, because primarily 

15           if they make more than $10,000 per year, 

16           which is an extraordinarily low threshold, 

17           they are out of luck.  And as it is, I know 

18           there was a three-year error on the TAP 

19           independent students where they were treated 

20           like dependent students.  

21                  Have we addressed that error at this 

22           time?  And are you confident that we won't 

23           see that again?  And can you talk about the 

24           impact on the students themselves?


                                                                   173

 1                  HESC PRESIDENT LINARES:  Yes.  

 2                  First of all, the issue of overpayment 

 3           that -- once we discovered it as an issue, we 

 4           addressed it and looked at it very seriously.  

 5           We immediately followed up with ITS to really 

 6           look into what happened and realized that 

 7           there were limitations in terms of the 

 8           outdated system that we use, which is 

 9           antiquated, decades in existence.

10                  We proceeded to establish more 

11           rigorous oversight or more rigorous steps to 

12           make sure that we address the issue and it 

13           would not happen again.  We proceeded 

14           immediately to examine internally how this 

15           had happened and was undetected for quite 

16           some time.  And it goes back to 2021, when 

17           there was a budgetary change done to TAP 

18           where it really looked at how TAP was 

19           disbursed to independent -- to the low amount 

20           and highest amount given to -- on TAP.  

21                  And that change triggered changes from 

22           11 schedules to five.  And when that was 

23           done, it was not captured.  And that's where 

24           the mistake was, from independent to 


                                                                   174

 1           dependent students.

 2                  And that was -- that has been 

 3           addressed.  We've informed all the colleges 

 4           and universities impacted, both public and 

 5           private.  We have taken steps to really 

 6           address the quality control.  And we are 

 7           modernizing now the entire system.

 8                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  Thank you.  Yes, 

 9           I appreciate that you're modernizing that.  

10           And again, I want to echo -- and we've had 

11           many conversations on this -- make sure the 

12           students are held harmless as well as the 

13           individual universities and colleges, so that 

14           they are not penalized for something the 

15           students were not aware of until this year.  

16                  But we appreciate your frankness in 

17           bringing this to our attention, and glad we 

18           are modernizing the system.

19                  Last question on this.  And that is 

20           with regard to TAP, I know students have been 

21           inundated, we know FAFSA itself, the feds are 

22           updating that.  And I heard that that's going 

23           to need a lot of work.  Lots of confusion out 

24           there.  And as somebody who struggles with 


                                                                   175

 1           these federal and state forms, I am 

 2           sympathetic.

 3                  The TAP application, I understand the 

 4           length of time can take as long as 60 days to 

 5           receive a determination on a TAP application.  

 6           Can you address that and tell us what we can 

 7           do or what you are doing to expedite that, 

 8           especially given the problems with the new 

 9           federal FAFSA form?

10                  HESC PRESIDENT LINARES:  Well, the 

11           FAFSA, as we know, came in late at the end of 

12           the year.  But we didn't wait for that.  We 

13           in October began the process of having 

14           students apply.  And to date we have over 

15           80,000 students who have already applied and 

16           are ready now, are in the process.  They've 

17           all been notified that they must fill out a 

18           FAFSA so far.

19                  So we are waiting for FAFSA and the 

20           federal government to be able to share the 

21           information they have in order for us to 

22           proceed with the students that have already 

23           applied.

24                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  Thank you.  Thank 


                                                                   176

 1           you so much.  And let us know how we can help 

 2           to accelerate that, because the students -- 

 3           it's causing a lot of anxiety among the 

 4           students.

 5                  And again, the bottom line is I 

 6           appreciate your help on a whole host of TAP 

 7           bills that are out there.  Our goal is to 

 8           turn these numbers around.

 9                  Thank you, Chair.

10                  HESC PRESIDENT LINARES:  Thank you.  

11                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

12                  And our next chair, Toby Stavisky, 

13           from the Senate.

14                  SENATOR STAVISKY:  I always push hard 

15           on everything, including microphones, I 

16           guess. 

17                  Dr. Linares, thank you.  Great to see 

18           you again.

19                  HESC PRESIDENT LINARES:  Same here.

20                  SENATOR STAVISKY:  And I appreciate 

21           the work that you're doing at HESC.  And I'm 

22           glad that the subject of the independent 

23           student has come up.  Because can you 

24           imagine, in 2024, living on $10,000 a year?  


                                                                   177

 1           That's not below the poverty line, it's way 

 2           under every other concept of society.

 3                  At any rate, the issue of the 

 4           independent student and the overpayments to 

 5           the students -- I understand that HESC is 

 6           sending out notices of repayment to these 

 7           students, to students to repay the 

 8           overpayment that they received.  Is that 

 9           correct?

10                  HESC PRESIDENT LINARES:  No, let me 

11           clarify.  

12                  Statutorily, HESC is required to 

13           submit invoices to the institutions, to the 

14           colleges.  This is part of the regular 

15           operating function of HESC, you know, with 

16           all the programs it has, in this particular 

17           case TAP.  

18                  So the colleges will be receiving 

19           notification on a regular basis, as they do 

20           every year, not the students.

21                  SENATOR STAVISKY:  And it's my 

22           understanding that both SUNY and CUNY are 

23           going to absorb the cost of the overpayment 

24           to the students?


                                                                   178

 1                  HESC PRESIDENT LINARES:  They have -- 

 2           there have been appropriations done within 

 3           their operations to help address this with 

 4           the colleges.

 5                  SENATOR STAVISKY:  What about the 

 6           students who do not attend a public 

 7           institution?  For example -- and I don't mean 

 8           to spring this on you.  However, I was 

 9           looking at the list, and there are 

10           14 students at the College of Saint Rose, and 

11           the college is being billed the 

12           23,000-and-change cost of the overpayment of 

13           the independent TAP.

14                  HESC PRESIDENT LINARES:  We're very 

15           sensitive to all students, students in public 

16           and private universities.  And it is 

17           certainly our hope that students will be held 

18           harmless.  

19                  As I said, the invoices will be sent 

20           to all colleges.  It is a requirement that 

21           we, by law, have to proceed with.  We've been 

22           having conversations, discussions to see how 

23           this can be addressed.  It is hopeful -- at 

24           our end we hope that this can be addressed 


                                                                   179

 1           with the institutions in addressing this 

 2           matter.

 3                  SENATOR STAVISKY:  I certainly hope 

 4           so.  Because many of these students, the -- 

 5           some of their Opportunity Program money has 

 6           been cut, there are other economic and social 

 7           challenges that many students have.  Many of 

 8           the colleges are financially stressed.  And 

 9           particularly an institution like the College 

10           of Saint Rose, they must have a long list of 

11           people to whom they owe money.  I think it's 

12           almost unfair.  

13                  And to bill them back to 2021 -- when 

14           the fiscal year is over, the fiscal year 2023 

15           is finished.  And yet we're going to bill 

16           them for previous years.  I think we've got 

17           to find a better way, and perhaps the statute 

18           should be changed.

19                  A couple of other questions.  Because 

20           I must tell you I appreciate those 

21           Zoom meetings that we've had concerning the 

22           independent TAP.  And I don't think we can 

23           close our legislative books on this issue.

24                  The Pell Grants and the TAP for the 


                                                                   180

 1           incarcerated, can you tell us how that is 

 2           proceeding?  

 3                  HESC PRESIDENT LINARES:  Sure.

 4                  SENATOR STAVISKY:  I must tell you -- 

 5           it was said earlier -- I think it's a great 

 6           program.  I think it's much cheaper than 

 7           incarcerating people -- having them go out to 

 8           society, get a job, contribute to the economy 

 9           and so on.

10                  HESC PRESIDENT LINARES:  We learned a 

11           lot when we implemented the DREAM Act as we 

12           rolled out the initiative, as it was restored 

13           for the populations in prison accessing 

14           higher education.  And we worked closely with 

15           the Consortium of Higher Education in 

16           Prisons, who helped roll out the program for 

17           us with paper applications, because students 

18           have -- they have no access to the internet.

19                  So we did that successfully and are 

20           happy to say that 661 applicants submitted, 

21           and 453 received TAP applications -- or 

22           reimbursement for their education at about 

23           $5 million.  

24                  SENATOR STAVISKY:  Lastly, let me just 


                                                                   181

 1           ask you a question about your agency, HESC.  

 2                  I took a look at some of your 

 3           meetings.  You have an unusually large board.  

 4           You did have a meeting in December of 2023 

 5           and it lasted a little over an hour, but 

 6           prior to that, the meeting -- the last 

 7           meeting that was held was held in 2019.  

 8           That's a four-year gap.  And that meeting 

 9           lasted 17 minutes.

10                  Do you think that the -- we ought to 

11           take a look at the structure of HESC to make 

12           it -- to update it?

13                  HESC PRESIDENT LINARES:  We are, as we 

14           speak, looking into the functions of the 

15           Board of Trustees, mindful that it was 

16           established when HESC was founded in the 

17           mid-'70s.  So taking a harder look at it now 

18           makes sense.

19                  But we had the pandemic.  The last 

20           time we met was to address the DREAM Act, 

21           which was an important meeting.  In fact, it 

22           had to be virtual because we were already 

23           approaching the pandemic.

24                  But we were pleased to see that the 


                                                                   182

 1           Senate approved two new members to the Board 

 2           of Trustees, giving us a quorum that allowed 

 3           for the meeting that you referred to.  And we 

 4           were able -- we met then on December 7th to 

 5           approve the regs for the non-degree students.  

 6           And we have our next meeting scheduled for 

 7           May 15th of this year.

 8                  SENATOR STAVISKY:  Yes.  

 9                  But I think that changes, the same way 

10           as we think there -- the TAP, the entire TAP 

11           structure ought to be modernized.  And I want 

12           to echo very briefly what was said a few 

13           minutes ago, that we've got to take another 

14           look at TAP.  Because my bill which increased 

15           the income eligibility from the 80,000 to 

16           110,000 -- I think maybe we ought to raise it 

17           even higher to include other programs as 

18           well.  And that hasn't changed in 25 years or 

19           so.  

20                  And while we're celebrating the 

21           50th anniversary, it seems to me that we 

22           ought to review what's happened and build on 

23           the better parts and get rid of the 

24           anachronistic parts.  


                                                                   183

 1                  So again, thank you, Dr. Linares, for 

 2           what you're doing.

 3                  HESC PRESIDENT LINARES:  Thank you.  

 4                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

 5                  Next is Assemblymember Ra, ranker.

 6                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Thank you.  

 7                  Good afternoon.

 8                  HESC PRESIDENT LINARES:  Good 

 9           afternoon.

10                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Always good to see a 

11           former colleague come back before us.

12                  One of the programs I know I've asked 

13           you about in previous years, and you've been 

14           able to follow up with some information, so 

15           I'm going to ask if you could do that again.  

16           It's the Child Welfare Worker Incentive 

17           Scholarship and the Child Welfare Worker Loan 

18           Forgiveness Program.  This budget funds them 

19           at $50,000 each, which is the same as in 

20           years past.  And I'm wondering if you have 

21           any data with you regarding how many people 

22           are applying for these programs, and how many 

23           have been awarded.  

24                  I think the last one I had was from 


                                                                   184

 1           two years ago in terms of that information.

 2                  HESC PRESIDENT LINARES:  I'm going to 

 3           ask my executive vice president to add.  And 

 4           thank you for the question.

 5                  HESC EXEC. VP GONZALEZ:  Yes, I will 

 6           get back to you.  I'd rather get back to you 

 7           with more specific information.  So if I may, 

 8           I would be happy to follow up with this.

 9                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Okay.

10                  HESC EXEC. VP GONZALEZ:  Thank you.

11                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  That would be great.  

12                  Just the small amounts really -- you 

13           know, it enables only, you know, five 

14           students to be awarded them each year.  And I 

15           think, given the workforce recruitment and 

16           retention issues we've had within that 

17           sector, you know, expanding that opportunity 

18           might be very helpful to --

19                  HESC PRESIDENT LINARES:  And I may 

20           just add.  One thing that we are doing as we 

21           are shifting the mission of our agency to be 

22           more focused on making aware all New Yorkers 

23           of the offerings that we have, all 28 

24           scholarship grants and loan forgiveness 


                                                                   185

 1           programs, that we engage aggressively in an 

 2           awareness for them to be able to apply for 

 3           every single program that we have.  

 4                  And that's -- we're excited about 

 5           that.

 6                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  With regard to the 

 7           Excelsior Scholarship and the Enhanced 

 8           tuition awards, obviously many years now into 

 9           this -- I know the Excelsior Scholarship is 

10           supposed to be funded at 136 million, which 

11           is almost 26 million less than last year.  

12                  So is that a function of enrollment?  

13           Do we expect the same number of scholarships 

14           to be awarded to students this year?

15                  HESC PRESIDENT LINARES:  Well, for the 

16           2022-'23 academic year we have close to 

17           29,000 students receiving Excelsior 

18           Scholarships.  Needless to say, this has been 

19           a very successful program.  It emphasizes 

20           completing college in four years, which, you 

21           know, reduces the risk of having to graduate 

22           with a debt.  But more importantly, it gets 

23           you into the job market quicker.  So it's 

24           been very successful.  


                                                                   186

 1                  With regards to the Enhanced Tuition, 

 2           we have 1,808, if I'm correct, students that 

 3           are receiving the -- benefiting from the 

 4           program.  I must say that it has reduced the 

 5           number from the time we started the program, 

 6           which was in concert with Excelsior, from 

 7           38 participating colleges to today now 24, I 

 8           believe we have.  

 9                  We believe the program has now 

10           generated $2.5 million, which are matched by 

11           colleges by 2.5, so it's $5 million.  

12                  We believe that it has reduced 

13           because -- mainly because the funds need to 

14           be matched by the participating institutions, 

15           so -- however, it is still going.  We feel 

16           that it's successful for those students that 

17           are in private universities.

18                  HESC EXEC. VP GONZALEZ:  If I may add 

19           also, it's that they need not just to match 

20           up to 3,000, but they also have to freeze the 

21           tuition rates, right, based on the first year 

22           that they are eligible to receive that award 

23           for as long as they're eligible to receive 

24           that award.  So that's also a consideration 


                                                                   187

 1           for the colleges.

 2                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Thank you.

 3                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

 4                  Senator Robert Jackson.

 5                  SENATOR JACKSON:  Thank you.  

 6                  So, Dr. Linares, thank you for your 

 7           service, and your team.  

 8                  I was just listening to you give your 

 9           presentation and questions and responses, and 

10           it seems like things are going well in your 

11           shop, compared to the previous panel, with 

12           respect to all of the money and Downstate on 

13           a cliff, people ready to fall off the cliff 

14           as a result of, you know, years of 

15           dysfunction and not enough support for 

16           capital and so forth and so on.  

17                  So I'm happy to hear that.  I'm going 

18           to go to your website and look at all of the 

19           things that are needed for our children to 

20           get more of the scholarships and all of the 

21           things that you have to offer.  That's needed 

22           to get out the information to everyone.

23                  But I'm curious -- and I said to 

24           myself, when you determine how many people 


                                                                   188

 1           are not filling out the FAFSA form -- and I 

 2           guess I asked you, do you do a survey of why 

 3           they're not filling it out at every level?  

 4           And I know you can't do it at your shop.  But 

 5           at every school, we should be encouraging 

 6           that.  And if not, finding out why, so then 

 7           we can then deal with the critical issue of 

 8           why they're not filling it out.  Because 

 9           what's at stake, how much money?

10                  HESC PRESIDENT LINARES:  Two hundred 

11           million.

12                  SENATOR JACKSON:  Two hundred million.

13                  So that's what I recommend if that has 

14           not been done.  But it's important that we 

15           give all of the students the opportunity to 

16           get involved in all the programs that you 

17           have to offer.  

18                  So we put out a weekly update every 

19           week, and I'm going to go to your website and 

20           have my staff look at all the programs so we 

21           can at least get it out there to the people 

22           in my district, so hopefully more people will 

23           take advantage.

24                  HESC PRESIDENT LINARES:  On the 


                                                                   189

 1           website, we're excited to say that by the end 

 2           of this month we will have a brand-new 

 3           state-of-the-art website.  In fact, we invite 

 4           you to a quick preview before we launch.  

 5                  And so we're excited about that 

 6           because it is highly interactive, 

 7           communicative, and I think it's tailored for 

 8           students and families.

 9                  On the FAFSA, as you spoke it reminded 

10           me of 1995 when you and I were on the school 

11           board and in three months we registered 

12           10,000 parents, half of the parents in the 

13           entire City of New York in 

14           Washington Heights.  

15                  There's no different approach with 

16           this when it comes to students accessing and 

17           families accessing these funds from the 

18           federal government.

19                  So I plan to work very aggressively 

20           with all our partners -- SED, the 

21           commissioner, and all of the other partners 

22           that we have.

23                  SENATOR JACKSON:  Thank you.

24                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  


                                                                   190

 1                  Assembly.

 2                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Assemblywoman 

 3           Clark.  

 4                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN CLARK:  Excellent.  

 5           Thank you so much.  

 6                  I'm going to stay on the same track I 

 7           did with our SUNY chancellor to talk about 

 8           TAP and FAFSA as well and let you know some 

 9           of my thoughts and concerns and questions.  

10                  I agree, getting to the point where 

11           everyone is filling out the FAFSA form is a 

12           wonderful idea.  And I know HESC has started 

13           to do some informational events around the 

14           state, and I think that's great as well.

15                  But what I'm really concerned about is 

16           the people who aren't applying are often the 

17           ones that are really struggling to find the 

18           information and fill out the form and don't 

19           necessarily have someone, you know, sort of 

20           boots on the ground helping them get through 

21           it.  

22                  And as much as HESC can do 

23           informational, I think it's wonderful.  I'm 

24           hoping that there's also a pot and a real 


                                                                   191

 1           resource -- some resources given to those who 

 2           are already actually doing that real boots on 

 3           the ground:  Helping families, holding their 

 4           hands through it.  Because these are again 

 5           the ones that really struggle to track down 

 6           the forms that are needed and the information 

 7           that is needed.

 8                  And we can't just let this be an 

 9           unfunded sort of mandate.  I know it's not 

10           mandated to have it for graduation.  But we 

11           are really trying to encourage it.  It only 

12           works if we actually pair up people who are 

13           in the communities doing this work and giving 

14           them the resources to help those families.

15                  HESC PRESIDENT LINARES:  I agree that 

16           this is so huge, that it requires all hands 

17           on deck.  And what it would take to really 

18           bring it down beyond what we are excited 

19           about doing as a small agency and the efforts 

20           that we have in collaboration with higher ed 

21           partners -- but also with the Department of 

22           Education, the commissioner and the school 

23           districts to be engaged, so we bring it down 

24           to where it makes a difference for students 


                                                                   192

 1           and families.

 2                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN CLARK:  I just hope that 

 3           that comes with some resources for those 

 4           groups, that we're not just letting them -- 

 5           trying to do more with less or more with what 

 6           they already have and expecting them to be 

 7           able to meet this demand and this need.

 8                  My second piece on that, and it is 

 9           really an issue of the -- you know, the 

10           Governor's proposed budget moving out 

11           $132 million from TAP as a decrease due to 

12           adjusted long-term enrollment trends instead 

13           of reinvesting that back into expanding 

14           income eligibility.  

15                  Which we've already seen -- you know, 

16           the number I continue to harp on is when 

17           we -- over a four-year period we had a 

18           9 percent decline in school enrollment in our 

19           SUNY schools, our public schools, but a 

20           26 percent decline in TAP.  Which means more 

21           and more families either aren't eligible or 

22           aren't filling it out because the $500 isn't 

23           worth it.  

24                  So I guess I was really frustrated 


                                                                   193

 1           that we're moving dollars out of that program 

 2           instead of figuring out ways to help more 

 3           families.

 4                  HESC PRESIDENT LINARES:  Yes.  As you 

 5           are aware, we are all for greater access to 

 6           students attending colleges.  And so we hope, 

 7           based on your discussions, that we're able to 

 8           continue to provide access to TAP for 

 9           students.

10                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

11                  So no more Senators, so we'll go --

12                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Oh, excuse me.  I 

13           didn't see your hand, Lea.  We do have one 

14           more Senator, excuse me.  Senator Lea Webb.

15                  SENATOR WEBB:  Thank you.  

16                  Thank you so much, Dr. Linares, for 

17           being here.  

18                  I just have two quick questions.  You 

19           know, one, I would be remiss in this moment 

20           if I didn't lift up the importance of TAP.  

21           You know, as a first-generation student 

22           myself, this was a program that was 

23           instrumental to me in my academic journey and 

24           continues to be for a number of students.  So 


                                                                   194

 1           definitely support our continued efforts to 

 2           expand TAP.  

 3                  My question is I know State Ed has an 

 4           MOU with both the Department of Health and 

 5           OTDA that they can have information about 

 6           families that receive SNAP and Medicaid 

 7           benefits.  This information is then used to 

 8           directly certify students for free meals in 

 9           schools.  

10                  Similarly, would your department be 

11           open to developing MOUs with DOH and OTDA, or 

12           possibly with SED, to collect that same 

13           information from incoming high school seniors 

14           to determine their TAP eligibility?  That's 

15           one.

16                  And then the other is with regards to 

17           funding support for the New York State 

18           Nursing Faculty Loan Forgiveness Incentive 

19           Program.  We know that we continue to have 

20           issues around healthcare provider shortages, 

21           nurses being no exception to that.  And it 

22           was brought to my attention that this program 

23           has been significantly underfunded.  

24                  So I was hoping you could address 


                                                                   195

 1           those two.  Thank you so much.

 2                  HESC PRESIDENT LINARES:  Yes.  On the 

 3           first one, I believe that there are 

 4           intersections with the State Department of 

 5           Education having a role when it comes to 

 6           initiatives and memoranda of understanding 

 7           that they have.  

 8                  And what I bring to bear with any 

 9           initiative that engages students as they 

10           enter college -- that's the mission of my 

11           agency, is I work very closely in the work 

12           that we do with students and families to help 

13           complement what the Department of Education 

14           is doing.  So we have collaborative 

15           approaches on that.  

16                  But we run programs that have been 

17           established by statute, by law, by you along 

18           with the Governor -- 

19                  SENATOR WEBB:  So are you saying that 

20           we would have to establish a law to make that 

21           happen with regards to SED working with you 

22           to get information from incoming high school 

23           seniors to determine their TAP eligibility?

24                  HESC PRESIDENT LINARES:  We have 


                                                                   196

 1           collaborated -- we collaborate as partners as 

 2           long as it helps access -- greater access to 

 3           students, and also access to whatever 

 4           resources they have.

 5                  But it is the mission of the State 

 6           Education Department to do so.  We 

 7           collaborate with them along with that.  

 8                  But by statute, we run 28 different 

 9           programs.  Those are what we oversee.  But 

10           there is collaboration that we have.

11                  SENATOR WEBB:  Okay.  We can follow up 

12           offline about that, and also the nursing loan 

13           forgiveness question.

14                  HESC PRESIDENT LINARES:  And we'll 

15           follow up on the second question.

16                  SENATOR WEBB:  Thank you so much.

17                  HESC PRESIDENT LINARES:  Sure.

18                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

19                  We go to Assemblyman Epstein.

20                  ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN:  President 

21           Linares, always good to see you.

22                  HESC PRESIDENT LINARES:  Same here.

23                  ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN:  So 300,000 

24           people in 2023 got financial assistance 


                                                                   197

 1           through TAP.  How many people applied for TAP 

 2           and were denied any TAP award?

 3                  HESC PRESIDENT LINARES:  The number of 

 4           students that applied for TAP --

 5                  ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN:  In 2023 you said 

 6           300,000 students got TAP.  How many were 

 7           denied TAP, denied any award at all?

 8                  HESC PRESIDENT LINARES:  We don't have 

 9           that number.  We'll get back to you --

10                  ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN:  Yeah, if you 

11           could get back to me, I'd appreciate it.

12                  HESC PRESIDENT LINARES:  -- on that, 

13           yes.

14                  ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN:  You know, part 

15           of our concern is like not -- TAP not being 

16           available to enough people.  And that's the 

17           theme that we've been hearing today.

18                  So I want to know how you feel about 

19           increasing the number of semesters that 

20           people could get a TAP award for.  Would you 

21           support increasing it beyond eight semesters?

22                  HESC PRESIDENT LINARES:  Well, we know 

23           that 12 credits per semester falls short in 

24           terms of graduating, so that's --


                                                                   198

 1                  ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN:  President, I 

 2           don't have a lot of time, so do you think you 

 3           would support more semesters?

 4                  HESC PRESIDENT LINARES:  Any effort 

 5           that you can come up with in the budgetary 

 6           process, along with the Governor, to help 

 7           enhance students getting that degree, will be 

 8           welcome.

 9                  ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN:  Great.  And so 

10           that would include grad school, if we can get 

11           TAP for grad school, additional semesters, 

12           increasing the TAP awards, either on the high 

13           end or the low end, you'd support anything to 

14           get more people TAP?

15                  HESC PRESIDENT LINARES:  Yeah, when we 

16           look at, you know, post-graduate education, I 

17           think it becomes so important and critical, 

18           especially given areas of needs within the 

19           workforce -- all that is welcome, if we can 

20           get additional support to enhance both 

21           undergraduate and graduate education.

22                  ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN:  And then how 

23           often do you hear from students about not 

24           being able to continue on with their 


                                                                   199

 1           education because they don't get enough TAP 

 2           award or they've run out of semesters?  Is 

 3           that something your office hears regularly 

 4           about?

 5                  HESC PRESIDENT LINARES:  Well, I must 

 6           say that as we are shifting our mission 

 7           within HESC to really make it strictly 

 8           informational and awareness for students and 

 9           families, we get a very powerful feedback and 

10           excitement about students having an 

11           opportunity to enter college.  Especially now 

12           that when we're expanding TAP to part-time, 

13           we're getting strong feedback on that.

14                  ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN:  And just I want 

15           to turn to Excelsior for a moment.  Could we 

16           find out how many people applied for 

17           Excelsior but were turned down for Excelsior, 

18           and kind of why the reasons they were turned 

19           down? 

20                  Because we want to know if there are 

21           gaps in the program that we can close up and 

22           fix.

23                  HESC PRESIDENT LINARES:  Yes.  I 

24           mentioned the 29,000, but we'll get back to 


                                                                   200

 1           you.  Thank you.

 2                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

 3                  We go to Assemblywoman Hyndman.

 4                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN:  Dr. Linares, 

 5           always good to see you.

 6                  HESC PRESIDENT LINARES:  Same here.

 7                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN:  I was reading 

 8           your testimony, and I know this, but I just 

 9           wanted to highlight it, so maybe this is more 

10           of a comment than a question.  

11                  But students attending non-degree 

12           programs at SUNY or CUNY colleges will now be 

13           able to access TAP.  So I'm curious that it 

14           wasn't expanded to proprietary colleges or 

15           proprietary schools, who have to do a lot 

16           more reporting than CUNY and SUNY.  Like 

17           every year, proprietary schools have to 

18           report how many graduates, where those 

19           graduates have been placed for workforce 

20           development.  And the proprietary colleges do 

21           this constantly because of gainful employment 

22           and the rules that are stringent around 

23           gainful employment.  

24                  So I'm curious as to why TAP wasn't 


                                                                   201

 1           expanded to part-time students at proprietary 

 2           colleges and why it's not been expanded to 

 3           proprietary schools.  

 4                  I don't know -- I mean, as far as the 

 5           administration of that, I know it's -- you're 

 6           more carrying out the rules and regulations 

 7           as opposed to the expansion of it per se.  

 8                  But I just think that because of the 

 9           reporting structures that State Education 

10           Department puts on those two areas, as well 

11           as federal requirements, they should have 

12           been included for the non-degree part of TAP 

13           as well as the expansion of part-time TAP to 

14           proprietary colleges.

15                  And I just want that on the record 

16           as -- that education obviously is not just 

17           SUNY and CUNY, it's obviously a whole sector 

18           of education.  When it comes to workforce 

19           development, those institutions have to be on 

20           record as far as where those students -- when 

21           they graduate and where they end up, because 

22           of federal reporting requirements.  So I 

23           think it's a disservice for New York State 

24           not to expand it.  


                                                                   202

 1                  We will be meeting with, you know, the 

 2           Governor and working with our Higher 

 3           Education Chair Pat Fahy, of course, to 

 4           expand TAP to those sectors.  So not really 

 5           your opinion, because, you know, I know you 

 6           do more of the oversight.  But just curious 

 7           what --

 8                  HESC PRESIDENT LINARES:  Regs and 

 9           regulation are an extension of the statute 

10           that was passed by law, by the Legislature 

11           and signed by the Governor.  

12                  So in that context, this initiative 

13           which -- for non-degree students to be able 

14           to access TAP is -- for the first time it's 

15           being done and we're rolling it out now.  

16           So --

17                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN:  Yeah, I just 

18           wondered what kind of oversight is that with 

19           your office and, you know, making sure that 

20           students are in programs that are credible 

21           and, you know, results-oriented --

22                  HESC PRESIDENT LINARES:  We've been 

23           working all of last year, since this was 

24           approved with SUNY and CUNY, to make sure 


                                                                   203

 1           that we roll it out now, this semester.  

 2                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN:  Thank you.

 3                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

 4                  We go to Assemblyman Eachus.

 5                  ASSEMBLYMAN EACHUS:  Thank you, 

 6           Madam Chair.  

 7                  Let me start by saying this is the 

 8           middle of the school year.  It is not too 

 9           late for this year.

10                  With that being said, we don't know 

11           each other personally, but I am a member or 

12           the Higher Ed Committee and I'm also 40 years 

13           a high school teacher teaching mostly 

14           seniors, almost exclusively seniors.  

15                  And with that being said, I think you 

16           also know -- I heard that you've been on this 

17           side of the table before.  I think you also 

18           know that we, most of us if not all of us, 

19           have a very special relationship with our 

20           superintendents and our school boards.  And 

21           I've met with all of mine.  And yet I'm 

22           sitting here right now looking at NY FAFSA 

23           READY, a program I've never heard of.  

24                  And so when we talk about boots on the 


                                                                   204

 1           ground, I would think we would be a wonderful 

 2           resource.  And this kind of goes along with 

 3           what Assemblymember Clark was talking 

 4           about -- not just having to pay people to go 

 5           out, but you have paid people who can go out 

 6           and help in this process.

 7                  I am assuming in your experience, like 

 8           mine -- I'm brand-new here -- 

 9           superintendents, school boards respond to us 

10           very well.  And knowing -- having been in a 

11           very, very urban school district, I know the 

12           reticence of students and some parents not to 

13           want to fill out these forms.  And I think we 

14           would have a much greater effect working for 

15           you to get this information out.

16                  And so what I ask is if you have 

17           specific information, either E -- 

18           electronically or hard copy, I personally 

19           would love to get it.  I can't answer for any 

20           other Assemblyperson or certainly Senator.  

21           But perhaps you could send it to them and we 

22           would be willing to be part of the boots on 

23           the ground for you.  

24                  And that's goes with all your 28 


                                                                   205

 1           scholarship programs and your website launch 

 2           and so on like that.

 3                  HESC PRESIDENT LINARES:  I couldn't 

 4           agree with you more in terms of where we 

 5           could make the greatest impact.  Having been 

 6           a teacher and a school board member and 

 7           working closely with superintendents, the 

 8           importance of having superintendents and 

 9           principals on the frontline and working with 

10           them -- so I couldn't agree more.

11                  HESC EXEC. VP GONZALEZ:  And I would 

12           just like to add that we do a lot of outreach 

13           already to the schools directly, to the 

14           guidance counselors.  But there's always room 

15           for us to continue to expand that.  

16                  And one of the things we've been 

17           working on directly with the chamber has been 

18           to post a tile, one of the tiles on ny.gov 

19           that would lead them directly to completing 

20           FAFSA.  So that anytime anybody goes to that 

21           website, it will take them directly there.  

22                  So we will be notifying everyone here 

23           about that.

24                  ASSEMBLYMAN EACHUS:  Please do.


                                                                   206

 1                  HESC EXEC. VP GONZALEZ:  Yes, 

 2           absolutely.

 3                  HESC PRESIDENT LINARES:  I also plan 

 4           to work with the Commissioner of Education 

 5           moving forward to help address this also.

 6                  ASSEMBLYMAN EACHUS:  Thank you.  

 7                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

 8                  Our last questioner is Assemblywoman 

 9           Simon.

10                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON:  Thank you.

11                  So A, first I want to just say that I 

12           agree with my colleagues with regard to the 

13           whole FAFSA support and increases in TAP 

14           eligibility.

15                  I have a very specific question with 

16           regard to the District Attorney and Indigent 

17           Legal Services Attorney Loan Forgiveness 

18           Program, which is administered through HESC.  

19           And, you know, law school tuition has grown 

20           dramatically.  Most of our lawyers get out 

21           with an average of $130,000 worth of debt.  

22           And currently this program that exists for 

23           loan forgiveness really only provides them 

24           with a maximum of $20,000 that they're 


                                                                   207

 1           eligible for only for a period of six years.  

 2                  There's a similar program for nurses 

 3           who graduate with an average debt of $55,000, 

 4           but they can get $40,000 worth of loan 

 5           reimbursement.  And social workers, who 

 6           graduate with a debt of $76,000, can get up 

 7           to $26,000 worth of loan reimbursement.

 8                  Would you support an increase to this 

 9           program so that our lawyers, who are the 

10           folks we rely on to represent indigent people 

11           and prosecutors -- it's keeping people from 

12           joining the field.  We can't fill those jobs 

13           and keep people in those jobs because of the 

14           financial constraints.  Would you support 

15           increasing --

16                  HESC PRESIDENT LINARES:  Any effort to 

17           help us reach -- especially in key areas of 

18           needs and services that are provided across 

19           New York State, would be welcome.  

20                  Of course, you know, any funding or 

21           increase to those programs will come through 

22           the budget process and the negotiations that 

23           take place.  But that will be welcome, 

24           because the need is there.  And I think it 


                                                                   208

 1           will make a huge difference in terms of 

 2           attracting people to prepare for those 

 3           special-need areas.

 4                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON:  Thank you.

 5                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  So thank you.  

 6           Thank you for being here.  And to the extent 

 7           that there are some questions that there 

 8           wasn't time for you to get your answers in --

 9                  HESC PRESIDENT LINARES:  We'll follow 

10           up on them.

11                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  -- please 

12           forward those to Senator Krueger and myself, 

13           and we'll make sure all our colleagues are 

14           able to receive them.

15                  Thank you for being here today.

16                  HESC PRESIDENT LINARES:  Thank you.

17                  HESC EXEC. VP GONZALEZ:  Thank you so 

18           much.  

19                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Now we are 

20           going to move to the nongovernmental portion 

21           of our hearing.  And the first, Panel B:  

22           Professional Staff Congress, CUNY, 

23           James Davis, president; United University 

24           Professions, Frederick Kowal, president; 


                                                                   209

 1           New York Community College Trustees, 

 2           Allen Williams, president; and Faculty 

 3           Federation of Erie Community College, 

 4           Andrew Sako, president.  

 5                  So if -- when you come down, if you 

 6           can go in that order, that would be helpful.

 7                  (Pause.)

 8                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Just a reminder 

 9           that presenters each have three minutes to 

10           make their presentation.  And when the four 

11           of you finish, then there will be some 

12           ability of members to ask questions again, 

13           three minutes for both the question and the 

14           answer.  

15                  And we've received all of your 

16           testimony in writing in advance, so it would 

17           be helpful to highlight, when you speak, the 

18           portions so that we get to hear the meat of 

19           your presentation.  

20                  With that, if we could start with the 

21           Professional Staff Congress.  

22                  DR. DAVIS:  Good afternoon, 

23           Senate Chairpersons Krueger and Stavisky, 

24           Assembly Chairpersons Weinstein and Fahy, and 


                                                                   210

 1           all members of the committees.  

 2                  Thank you for giving us the 

 3           opportunity to testify today and for your 

 4           critical support for public higher education.  

 5           I'm James Davis, president of the 

 6           Professional Staff Congress at CUNY.  

 7                  The Legislature worked very hard in 

 8           the last two budget cycles on the process of 

 9           setting the City University back on course 

10           after decades of disinvestment.  More than 

11           400 million in new annual operating aid has 

12           entered CUNY.  Without those resources, CUNY 

13           would be in a far more precarious position.  

14                  We have seen 575 new full-time faculty 

15           hired in the past two years, laudable efforts 

16           to boost enrollment aided by enhancements to 

17           the TAP program.  PSC members are faculty and 

18           professional staff who care deeply about 

19           their students and about their disciplines.  

20           They believe in CUNY's historic mission to 

21           educate the children of the whole people of 

22           New York, and they continue to make it 

23           possible for CUNY to help propel more 

24           students into the middle class than all the 


                                                                   211

 1           Ivy League schools combined.  And we love 

 2           what we do.  

 3                  CUNY now faces financial pressures 

 4           that are frankly more intense than any that 

 5           I've seen in my 20 years as a faculty member 

 6           at Brooklyn College, and we need your 

 7           commitment and the Governor's for more 

 8           resources.  Student enrollment is still not 

 9           quite back to where it was before the 

10           pandemic, but it has rebounded.  The crisis 

11           that we're facing now is not a crisis of 

12           enrollment, it's one of student attrition and 

13           understaffing.  

14                  In the four years from 2018 to 2022, 

15           CUNY experienced a net loss of 1313 full-time 

16           employees.  And that's even with the infusion 

17           that I mentioned of over 500 new full-time 

18           faculty members.  Sharper cuts still have 

19           fallen on the budgets for adjunct faculty and 

20           other part-time staff.  Enrollment, as I 

21           said, is increasing at almost all CUNY 

22           campuses, and applications for next fall, as 

23           you may have seen, have hit an all-time high.  

24                  And the question is what awaits these 


                                                                   212

 1           students.  PSC members support our students' 

 2           academic and personal development, but they 

 3           cannot be effective in a chaotic environment 

 4           in which hundreds of classes are being 

 5           canceled up to a week before the semester 

 6           begins.  Instructors come and go like through 

 7           a subway turnstile, and vacant staff 

 8           positions go unfilled by design.  

 9                  You have my written testimony, so you 

10           will be familiar with the nine, quote, 

11           unquote, colleges of concern.  These are 

12           campuses where the university is clawing back 

13           the budget -- 

14                  (Timer sounds.) 

15                  DR. DAVIS:  And since my time is up, I 

16           will just close out by calling attention to 

17           the fact that even at these nine colleges you 

18           have classes, as I mentioned, being canceled 

19           within a week of the semester.  Places like 

20           York College, Queens College, which was 

21           established during the Great Depression -- 

22                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

23                  DR. DAVIS:  -- find that they need to 

24           lay off even full-time faculty members on 


                                                                   213

 1           short-term contracts before the semester 

 2           begins.  

 3                  So we look forward -- 

 4                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

 5                  DR. DAVIS:  -- to working with you.  

 6                  Thank you very much.

 7                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Sure.  And as I 

 8           said, we have your written testimony, so try 

 9           and hit the highlights.  

10                  And UUP.  

11                  DR. KOWAL:  Good afternoon.  Thank you 

12           all for giving me the opportunity to testify 

13           today.  My name is Dr. Frederick Kowal, 

14           president of the United University 

15           Professions.  

16                  You have my written testimony, so I 

17           will only make two major points concerning 

18           our priorities in this year's budget.  

19                  First, deepest thanks for the 

20           Legislature's steadfast support for our 

21           members' work.  Last year's budget for SUNY 

22           was historic.  Your inclusion of $163 million 

23           in operating aid was vital.  

24                  However, Chancellor King and 


                                                                   214

 1           SUNY leadership failed to utilize these funds 

 2           to address the structural deficits at 

 3           19 campuses.  It is why this year we are 

 4           asking that the final budget include 

 5           $139 million directly allocated to the 

 6           18 campuses now facing structural deficits.  

 7                  This is urgently needed to stop SUNY's 

 8           irresponsible steps which have eliminated 

 9           programs at Potsdam and Fredonia and brought 

10           about retrenchments at Potsdam.  We fear 

11           additional campuses will face such cuts, 

12           further harming the SUNY system and 

13           eliminating access and opportunity for 

14           thousands of New Yorkers.  

15                  Second, regarding the announced plan 

16           to close the hospital at SUNY Downstate HSC.  

17           This poorly designed plan included no input 

18           from the community of Central Brooklyn or 

19           from any of the stakeholders.  It was drafted 

20           in secrecy.  The announcement yesterday that 

21           SUNY will hold, quote, five themed focus 

22           groups and stakeholder sessions, quote, is 

23           further evidence that the leadership of SUNY 

24           is approaching the legitimate concerns, 


                                                                   215

 1           fears, and anger elicited by their 

 2           announcement to close the hospital with 

 3           arrogance and disrespect.  

 4                  With the plan to close the hospital 

 5           already announced, any discussion with the 

 6           community only serves as a smokescreen for 

 7           this disastrous plan.  The result of the 

 8           closure of Downstate will bring incalculable 

 9           harm to the health of Central Brooklyn.  This 

10           community needs more and better healthcare, 

11           not less.  

12                  For SUNY to abandon the hospital and 

13           claim that it is necessary due to the 

14           previous underinvestment by the state is a 

15           failure of vision and a willful disregard of 

16           the impacts of this decision not only on the 

17           health of the community but also on the 

18           education taking place at Downstate's medical 

19           school.  

20                  In conclusion, as President John F. 

21           Kennedy once stated concerning civil rights:  

22           "We are confronted primarily with a moral 

23           issue."  The people of Central Brooklyn and 

24           the students at the medical college there 


                                                                   216

 1           deserve the best the state can do, and that 

 2           means an end to plans to close Downstate 

 3           Hospital and instead for all stakeholders to 

 4           come together and create a path with 

 5           investment by the state to improve and 

 6           modernize the facility and to address the 

 7           long-term health crisis in the 

 8           African-American community there.  

 9                  The task is before us.  Let us embrace 

10           it with vision, alacrity, and determination.  

11           Thank you.

12                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

13                  New York Community College Trustees.  

14                  MR. WILLIAMS:  Good afternoon.  My 

15           name is Allen Williams.  I am the board chair 

16           of Monroe Community College in Rochester, 

17           New York, and also the chair of the New York 

18           Community College Trustees.  

19                  I'm speaking here today on behalf of 

20           NYCCT, the statewide organization that 

21           represents 300 trustees of the 30 community 

22           colleges in the SUNY system.  

23                  I'm here today asking for an increase 

24           of 97 million in the base operating aid for 


                                                                   217

 1           the 30 community colleges in the SUNY system.  

 2           And that ask is predicated on the fact that 

 3           over the past 20 years, community colleges 

 4           saw a disinvestment of 2.5 billion versus the 

 5           SUNY four-year institutions.  

 6                  The SUNY community colleges educate 

 7           more than 174,000 students, representing 

 8           45 percent of the total SUNY undergraduate 

 9           population.  Yet our students are not 

10           supported equitably.  A four-year SUNY 

11           college receives about $19,000 in student 

12           aid, while a community college student or 

13           community college receives about $2600 in 

14           direct student aid from the state, coupled 

15           with another $2900 in aid from our local 

16           sponsors, the counties.  

17                  And while we support the level of 

18           investment and commitment that SUNY has given 

19           to the four-year institutions, we ask that 

20           the same level of commitment in support be 

21           extended to the community colleges.  

22                  And in return for that 97 million of 

23           increase in our basic operating need, here is 

24           what we can deliver.  Our presidents have 


                                                                   218

 1           pioneered what is called the Empire State 

 2           Community Workforce Guarantee.  It's an 

 3           initiative designed to enable community 

 4           colleges to train and educate about 

 5           20,000 students per year across the state in 

 6           various workforce development fields 

 7           including nursing, cybersecurity, advanced 

 8           manufacturing, and automotive technology.  

 9                  According to New York State law -- and 

10           it's something that I've heard you talk about 

11           or reference here today -- New York City 

12           Education Law 6304 governs the financing of 

13           community colleges.  The funding model should 

14           be equally distributed:  A third from the 

15           state, a third from the local sponsor, the 

16           county, and a third from student tuition.  

17                  But based on the latest available 

18           data, community college students bear the 

19           highest share, 38 percent, followed by local 

20           counties, 34 percent, and the state's share 

21           paying the lowest of 28 percent.  

22                  Okay.

23                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

24                  And last.  


                                                                   219

 1                  MR. SAKO:  Good afternoon, 

 2           Chairpersons Krueger, Weinstein, honorable 

 3           members of the Legislature, and distinguished 

 4           staff.  I'm Andrew Sako.  I'm the president 

 5           of the Faculty Federation of Erie Community 

 6           College, and I'm also a NYSUT board member 

 7           that represents community colleges.  

 8                  I want to thank you all for what you 

 9           did last year on crafting the enacted budget, 

10           but specifically for standing firm on the 

11           funding for which -- have the hold harmless 

12           language for community colleges which was 

13           critical to all of our institutions.  So 

14           thank you for that.  

15                  What we do as community colleges.  As 

16           stated by others, community colleges educate 

17           and prepare students for both the workforce 

18           and provide a foundation for those seeking to 

19           move to four-year institutions.  Community 

20           colleges are also -- have been economic 

21           engines for our communities.  

22                  Our enrollment post-COVID -- community 

23           colleges bore the brunt of the enrollment 

24           declines.  However, we are now seeing signs 


                                                                   220

 1           of enrollment increases.  As stated earlier 

 2           and as stated by my colleague next to me, the 

 3           statutory support for the state -- the state 

 4           is not matching, and for open enrollment 

 5           institutions it should be 40 percent.  And 

 6           the state has not met that operating need, or 

 7           come nowhere close to that, and students are 

 8           bearing more of the brunt of this operating 

 9           cost.  

10                  I also want to -- I'm encouraged to 

11           hear the announcement that we have the 

12           ASAP program, and that really helps with our 

13           students being able to finish and with 

14           retention.  However, we really need to 

15           encourage you to provide more money in that 

16           area, 100 million to expand the model that 

17           CUNY successfully had the ASAP at their 

18           community colleges.  

19                  We're disappointed that only 13 of the 

20           30 community colleges were included in this 

21           particular funding model.  We would also 

22           welcome the opportunity in any process to 

23           design and create a funding model that works 

24           for the institutions to give us a realistic 


                                                                   221

 1           realignment of monies that we need in order 

 2           to maintain and progress for the students 

 3           that are going to be serving in the future.  

 4                  We must work to insulate community 

 5           colleges from the short-term enrollment 

 6           fluctuations and prepare them for the 

 7           long-term growth and sustainability that we 

 8           all want for our communities.  

 9                  Thank you.

10                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

11                  So we go to questions from members, 

12           and start first with our chair of Higher 

13           Education, Pat Fahy.

14                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  Thank you.  Thank 

15           you, Chair, and thank you to the entire 

16           panel.  I know we're now on the much shorter 

17           time limit.  

18                  Let me start with both presidents 

19           of -- President Kowal and President Davis 

20           regarding the comments and obviously the 

21           concerns.  And we've talked a lot this 

22           morning about the years of disinvestment in 

23           SUNY and CUNY.  Can you briefly recommend or 

24           talk about the investments that are needed?  


                                                                   222

 1           And I know President Davis in particular, 

 2           given that the contract agreement is not 

 3           finished yet, how that may or may not affect 

 4           our budget timeline.  

 5                  But if you can talk about the overall 

 6           needs and what your specific recommendations 

 7           are on the operating dollars, as well as some 

 8           of the capital dollars -- we haven't talked 

 9           about that -- and I will watch the time.  

10                  Thank you.  

11                  DR. DAVIS:  Thank you for the 

12           question.  

13                  As you observed, we are in the middle 

14           of contract negotiations, and I'm hopeful for 

15           a good outcome.  I was glad to see the 

16           university make the request for funding for 

17           the contract.  

18                  We have five areas of priority in 

19           terms of operating aid.  The practice under 

20           the prior Executive of not funding collective 

21           bargaining agreements ate into and undermined 

22           the budgets severely over time.  So a return 

23           to funding -- contractual increases, 

24           mandatory costs -- is welcome.  


                                                                   223

 1                  We are seeking operating aid to 

 2           improve our students' ability to have contact 

 3           with full-time faculty members.  That 

 4           would -- I'm going to put out big numbers, 

 5           because this would require transformative 

 6           investments, $385 million across the system 

 7           in recurring aid.

 8                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  Can I let Fred 

 9           have a chance to -- 

10                  DR. DAVIS:  You want to jump in on 

11           Fred?  Okay, I'll let you go there.  

12                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  Thank you.  Thank 

13           you so much.  I'm watching the time.  

14                  DR. KOWAL:  Yeah, I would reiterate 

15           the $139 million needed to remove the 

16           long-term debts faced by the campuses that I 

17           mentioned earlier.  

18                  But in addition, transformative 

19           funding.  The 100 million, expanding the 

20           amount that the Governor has proposed and 

21           that was in last year's budget.  

22                  Thirdly, I was glad to hear that the 

23           chancellor supports opportunity programs.  We 

24           should fund those programs to a larger 


                                                                   224

 1           extent, 20 million more for those programs, 

 2           not just undo the Governor's cuts.

 3                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  And I want to 

 4           continue the conversation on 

 5           Downstate Hospital.  Thank you for your 

 6           comments.  You know, we definitely need the 

 7           alternatives.  

 8                  We have 24 seconds left for community 

 9           colleges, which -- so pleased to hear so much 

10           about today.  Can we talk about the 

11           97 million and what that's composed of, 

12           please?  President Williams.  

13                  MR. WILLIAMS:  I'm sorry.  The 

14           97 million would go towards the base 

15           operating aid.  And what it would do, it 

16           would basically bring the state's 

17           contribution up to the same level as the 

18           counties, and getting to the point of -- 

19           well, pretty much in line with the State 

20           Education Law at 33 percent.

21                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  Thirty-three 

22           percent.  Thank you.  

23                  MR. WILLIAMS:  Yes.

24                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  Thank you, Chair.


                                                                   225

 1                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

 2                  To the Senate?

 3                  CHAIRMAN KRUEGER:  Senator Toby 

 4           Stavisky.

 5                  SENATOR STAVISKY:  Thank you, 

 6           gentlemen.  Real quick.  

 7                  First, President Davis, obviously we 

 8           discussed the collective bargaining 

 9           requirements and the need to provide funding 

10           for it.  Let me go to the conversation we had 

11           on the nine distressed schools at CUNY, and 

12           particularly the loss of faculty members at a 

13           school -- where I went for graduate school, 

14           Queens College.  And that December -- the 

15           nonrenewal of the contracts.  

16                  DR. DAVIS:  I think it's important to 

17           understand that this took place midyear, in 

18           the context of cuts that universities sought 

19           from the entire system, on the scale of 

20           $128 million in savings in fiscal '24.  

21                  And then, in addition to that, midyear 

22           the university pursued additional cuts at 

23           these nine campuses.  

24                  As you pointed out, I mean, it's 


                                                                   226

 1           really unfortunately normal for there to be a 

 2           lot of churn among contingent faculty and 

 3           staff.  What was striking about what happened 

 4           at Queens College is that we lost 

 5           26 full-time faculty members who were on 

 6           short-term contracts.  They teach four 

 7           classes a semester.  Never mind the impact on 

 8           them and their families, you're talking about 

 9           104 sections of classes that students are 

10           going to then have to scramble to find 

11           substitutes.

12                  SENATOR STAVISKY:  Thank you.  

13                  DR. DAVIS:  Thank you.

14                  SENATOR STAVISKY:  And 

15           President Kowal, I don't know if you heard 

16           Chancellor King's responses to our questions 

17           about Downstate.  But in the remaining 

18           1 minute 18 seconds, will you comment on the 

19           proposal for -- add to what you would have 

20           normally said on Downstate.  

21                  DR. KOWAL:  Thank you very much.  

22                  Yes, I did hear what the chancellor 

23           said.  It's very disconcerting to hear the 

24           various ways that this transformation is 


                                                                   227

 1           supposed to be taking place.  I heard, for 

 2           instance, that there would be weeks during 

 3           which time our highly trained professionals 

 4           who care for that community would be finding 

 5           jobs elsewhere.  I heard that these hearings 

 6           or these meetings would be over the next two 

 7           months.  What is the rush?  

 8                  The plan was developed in secret, and 

 9           there was no consultation.  I will state 

10           categorically I have met with the chancellor 

11           every month since he arrived.  At no point 

12           was there any specific discussion about a 

13           plan going forward.  It was simply stated:  

14           We have to talk about Downstate, because it's 

15           a problem.  

16                  We in UUP have proposed plans and 

17           changes at Downstate.  For the 10 years that 

18           I've been president, we have been seeking a 

19           partner.  We've never had one.  To have it 

20           dropped on us -- just like you, Senator, I 

21           got the phone call on the M.L. King holiday 

22           at 9:30 p.m. informing me that the plan was 

23           being announced.  That's not the way we 

24           should do business on a hospital that serves 


                                                                   228

 1           this community.

 2                  SENATOR STAVISKY:  Thank you.

 3                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

 4                  We go to Assemblywoman Clark.

 5                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN CLARK:  Hello.  

 6                  All right, I'm going to start with a 

 7           quick yes-or-no question.  We've had a lot of 

 8           conversations; we know enrollment is key in 

 9           getting enrollment not just up to the levels 

10           it was before COVID, but even past it.  

11                  I think a robust, strong public system 

12           is -- higher education system is critically 

13           important for our -- our -- and for us as a 

14           State Legislature to invest in those who are 

15           part of it.  

16                  So my first question is, if we were to 

17           increase the income threshold for TAP, if we 

18           were to increase the minimum award, if we 

19           were to remove the independent/dependent 

20           issue, if we were to allow fees to be 

21           covered, if we were to allow graduate 

22           students to use it and expanded semesters, 

23           would it increase enrollment across your 

24           state universities or -- you know, or through 


                                                                   229

 1           SUNY?  

 2                  DR. KOWAL:  Yes.  

 3                  DR. DAVIS:  Yes.  

 4                  MR. SAKO:  I would say yes as well.  

 5                  MR. WILLIAMS:  I would say yes also, 

 6           with some caveats.  

 7                  (Laughter.) 

 8                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN CLARK:  Always, 

 9           President Williams.  Which I'm going to get 

10           to you now.  Thank you for that.  

11                  I think we all agree, too, and I think 

12           it's our obligation to really do that and 

13           ensure more families take advantage of it and 

14           can use it, and more students.  

15                  To the community colleges, I 

16           wholeheartedly agree on increasing the 

17           operating to match what the counties give and 

18           really making it more in line with those who 

19           go to SUNY in terms of what we give as a body 

20           to support those students.  

21                  But I really also want to get on the 

22           capital side, particularly around the 

23           workforce training certificate programs.  All 

24           those things that we are seeing huge 


                                                                   230

 1           increases in.  And we know there's no Micron 

 2           without it, we know there's no future in AI 

 3           without it.  These are -- our community 

 4           colleges are really the puzzle piece to 

 5           connect all of that.  

 6                  So, you know, we know MCC is really 

 7           trying to move their applied technologies and 

 8           that whole thing onto their campus at MCC, 

 9           but it's a capital cost.  And they just don't 

10           seem to have access to the same kind of 

11           capital dollars that maybe a SUNY campus 

12           does.  Yet we know that kind of place is 

13           critical to fill this workforce need that we 

14           know we're going to have.  

15                  So can you talk a little bit about 

16           that?  

17                  MR. WILLIAMS:  Yes.  And to your 

18           point, too, the way that the capital is 

19           allocated, or capital -- more so down at the 

20           community colleges, are different than the 

21           four-year institutions.

22                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN CLARK:  Exactly.  

23                  MR. WILLIAMS:  Because the capital 

24           works at community colleges -- in large part, 


                                                                   231

 1           it's based on what the counties can do.  And 

 2           in a case like Monroe, we have been fortunate 

 3           that the county is in good financial shape.  

 4           So when we go to the county with our capital 

 5           proposals, more often than not they say yes.  

 6                  But there are some colleges, for 

 7           example, where I know they can't -- you know, 

 8           they can't pave their parking lot because 

 9           their counties can't afford to do it.  So, 

10           you know, that's another issue that we at 

11           some point in time have to address.  

12                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN CLARK:  We do need to 

13           look at that capital piece for community 

14           colleges.  

15                  MR. WILLIAMS:  Yes.

16                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN CLARK:  Thank you.

17                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

18                  Senate?  

19                  CHAIRMAN KRUEGER:  Senator Robert 

20           Jackson.

21                  SENATOR JACKSON:  Thank you.  So I'm 

22           just considering the bucket that you're in 

23           right now.  This is a bucket.  And basically 

24           the water has been poured out, and you're 


                                                                   232

 1           drying up and you may perish.  

 2                  I mean, I know what the state budget 

 3           is.  The Executive put it out, 

 4           $232.7 billion.  The reserve is 20 billion.  

 5                  And I heard the chancellor talk about 

 6           a transition, but there's really no details 

 7           in the transition, just general things like 

 8           that.  And I know that UUP has 

 9           approximately -- how many members there, 

10           3,000?  PEF has 400.  But thousands and 

11           thousands of patients.  

12                  And so they're going to move one 

13           section over to Kings -- King, what is it?  

14           Kings County Hospital.  And someone testified 

15           that the space is -- where are they going to 

16           put it at?  I mean, this is not the way to do 

17           business.  Let me just say that.  

18                  So I ask you to reach out to all of 

19           your members and ask them to reach out to 

20           every -- no matter where they live at, to 

21           reach out to every State Senator, to every 

22           State Assemblymember, in order to try to keep 

23           the pressure on us and the Executive, meaning 

24           our Governor, Kathy Hochul.  


                                                                   233

 1                  I mean, because everyone, I would 

 2           think, wanted to work out in a transition in 

 3           order to rehab, rebuild.  And it's going to 

 4           cost, yes, but it's going to cost more when 

 5           people are dying, and people are going to 

 6           lose their jobs.  And people may say, no, no 

 7           one's going to die.  I hope not.  But the way 

 8           we're going, we're just saying anything in 

 9           order to just try to get over.  And I'm not 

10           about that.  

11                  So I'm here listening to what you have 

12           to say so that I can go back in the 

13           Democratic Conference and speak up on behalf 

14           of the patients that are going to be thrown 

15           around at different locations and, not really 

16           in my opinion, dealt with like they're 

17           supposed to.  And all of the staff, and the 

18           people that you represent.  And they're like 

19           up in arms, I'm sure, because I would be.  

20                  But I say this to you, this is not the 

21           way to do business.  And I look forward to 

22           working with you and all of your members in 

23           order to communicate to the Executive and her 

24           staff and to the leaders of the Senate and 


                                                                   234

 1           the Assembly that we have to fix this and 

 2           we've got to do it right.  

 3                  DR. KOWAL:  Certainly, Senator.  I 

 4           appreciate your support and all of the 

 5           support that we have heard from legislators, 

 6           from the community.  

 7                  The community is up in arms.  

 8           Certainly our members are very concerned.  

 9           First and foremost, our concern is about the 

10           community that we serve and the healing, the 

11           work that goes on there at Downstate.  To 

12           have it abandoned is just totally 

13           unacceptable.

14                  SENATOR JACKSON:  And I don't live in 

15           Brooklyn.

16                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

17                  We go to Assemblyman Gray.

18                  ASSEMBLYMAN GRAY:  Thank you very 

19           much, everyone, for being here today.  

20                  So first, President Kowal, you've been 

21           critical of the allocation of last year's 

22           aid, and particularly with the Potsdam issue, 

23           which I represent Potsdam.  So do you want to 

24           elaborate a little bit on that?  


                                                                   235

 1                  And then I'm going to go right to 

 2           Dr. Williams, because -- or excuse me, 

 3           President Williams -- because I want you to 

 4           talk about FTEs and the aid is based on FTEs.  

 5           Right?  So an FTE can be three people.  So it 

 6           requires, right, a significant amount of 

 7           staffing to deal with three people, but the 

 8           aid is based on just one particular FTE.  

 9                  So thank you.  

10                  DR. KOWAL:  Yes, thank you very much, 

11           Assemblyman.  

12                  With regard to Potsdam and the 

13           distribution of funds, what we were calling 

14           for -- and what we saw, in fact, very 

15           strongly supported in the Legislature -- was 

16           that there be created this $161 million fund 

17           to get the campuses that were suffering from 

18           deficits out of those deficits, and then plan 

19           moving forward for a sustainable future.  

20                  When SUNY did not do that, then to 

21           press a campus like Potsdam to immediately 

22           come up with a plan to deal with the 

23           shortfall is going to lead to the mistakes 

24           which were made, and now to retrenchments, 


                                                                   236

 1           which means tenured faculty and professional 

 2           staff losing their jobs and the community 

 3           impacted.  

 4                  You I'm sure know that you don't do 

 5           strategic planning under the gun of a 

 6           financial crisis.  You take care of the 

 7           crisis first, and then you plan on going 

 8           forward.  The plan will be much better and 

 9           much more sustainable.  That's what we 

10           continue to call for.

11                  ASSEMBLYMAN GRAY:  Thank you.  

12           Appreciate it.  

13                  Mr. Williams?  

14                  MR. WILLIAMS:  Right.  In terms of 

15           FTEs, correct, you're correct.  So there are 

16           three FTEs, basically -- three part-time FTEs 

17           equals one full-time FTE, if you would.  

18                  However, if you get a part-time 

19           student, they still have access to the same 

20           sorts of services, the same facilities, as 

21           does a full-time student.  So if a student 

22           comes in, like, half-time or taking one 

23           credit course, they still go to the library, 

24           they still have access to all of the other 


                                                                   237

 1           facilities that the institution provides.  

 2                  So we can't -- 

 3                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN GRAY:  You don't give 

 4           them a third of the time -- 

 5                  MR. WILLIAMS:  Right.  You don't give 

 6           them a third of the time -- 

 7                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN GRAY: -- of a counselor, 

 8           right?  

 9                  MR. WILLIAMS:  Correct.  Exactly.

10                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN GRAY:  So you really 

11           have to -- you really have to look at 

12           head count versus FTEs -- 

13                  MR. WILLIAMS:  Right.

14                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN GRAY:  -- in a lot of 

15           cases, especially in the community colleges.  

16                  MR. WILLIAMS:  Yes.  

17                  And the other thing, too, when you 

18           start to look at the non-credit programs, 

19           like a dental hygienist or a nurse or nursing 

20           programs, those programs are not counted in 

21           our head count.  But we still have to provide 

22           those services.  

23                  And in order for those students to 

24           take those courses, it depends -- it will 


                                                                   238

 1           depend on whether or not we get outside 

 2           grants, or the student has to pay the higher 

 3           tuition rate, which causes -- and that is 

 4           really sort of the limiting factor for 

 5           expansion of a lot of those programs.

 6                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN GRAY:  Thank you.

 7                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

 8                  We go to the Senate now.

 9                  CHAIRMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

10                  Senator Lea Webb.

11                  SENATOR WEBB:  Thank you all for being 

12           here.  

13                  You know, again, I'm going to extend 

14           my full support to everyone.  You know, I'm a 

15           former -- well, I'll say current UUP member 

16           as, Fred, you also remarked.  

17                  I just have two questions, one with 

18           regards to the $139 million.  And I tried to 

19           ask this of the chancellor and ran out of 

20           time.  

21                  But what is the recommendation moving 

22           forward in regards to, again -- we do a lot 

23           of advocacy in the Legislature.  We were 

24           successful last year, as an example, to push 


                                                                   239

 1           for more operational capital funding.  And 

 2           then we're here, and so we don't quite find 

 3           out what happened with those funds.  And 

 4           so -- and then we hear news of closures.  

 5                  And so I wanted to know if you could 

 6           elaborate on that.  That's my question for 

 7           you.  

 8                  And I have a question for Mr. Williams 

 9           with regards to the community college 

10           funding.  You know, again, I'm a community 

11           college graduate myself.  I know firsthand 

12           that our community colleges have been 

13           significantly underfunded.  And yet they are 

14           paramount in a lot of the workforce 

15           development initiatives that we're looking to 

16           continue to do in the state.  

17                  I know that you mentioned the 

18           community colleges -- the community college 

19           workforce guarantee.  So I wanted to know if 

20           you could elaborate on that as well.  

21                  Thank you.  

22                  DR. KOWAL:  Well, first, on the 

23           distribution of the 163 million, I can tell 

24           you what the chancellor has shared with me 


                                                                   240

 1           and what we have seen in the documents that 

 2           came out of SUNY.  

 3                  The first step they did was they took 

 4           a portion of that funding and treated it as 

 5           if it was tuition increase for a tuition 

 6           increase that you all correctly opposed and 

 7           did not pass.  So in other words, they 

 8           allocated those funds to the largest 

 9           campuses, the University Centers -- which, 

10           fine, they need support too.  But it also 

11           meant that the financial distribution was 

12           skewed in the direction of the biggest 

13           campuses and those that are doing very well 

14           in terms of enrollment.  

15                  The second point is -- and I think 

16           it's just as important -- is as we discussed 

17           the rolling out of these resources, when we 

18           do so, it can and does exacerbate a situation 

19           of underfunding over the years.  And that's 

20           what we're facing, and that's why we're back 

21           demanding another allocation of funds for 

22           those struggling campuses.

23                  SENATOR WEBB:  And then with the 

24           remaining time -- 


                                                                   241

 1                  MR. WILLIAMS:  Yes, what the guarantee 

 2           does, or says, is that in return for the 

 3           97 million, we, the community colleges, can 

 4           produce 20,000 students, career-ready 

 5           students per year to fill those jobs that are 

 6           in high demand.  

 7                  And it parallels to a large extent 

 8           what the Governor has in her proposal, which 

 9           she calls the On Ramp program.  Which I think 

10           she was -- the commitment is, or we're 

11           thinking about committing $200 million to 

12           that.  

13                  Well, we can do it.  The community 

14           colleges have the experience, we have the 

15           expertise.  We also have the infrastructure 

16           in place to do it.

17                  CHAIRMAN KRUEGER:  I'm sorry, I have 

18           to cut you off.  Thank you.  

19                  MR. WILLIAMS:  Okay.

20                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

21                  We go to Assemblyman Smullen.

22                  ASSEMBLYMAN SMULLEN:  Great, thanks a 

23           lot.  

24                  I just want to very quickly go back to 


                                                                   242

 1           community college and the relationship 

 2           through programs like P-TECH, with Early 

 3           College High Schools.  

 4                  You know, in rural areas -- I 

 5           sponsored a rural equity initiative this past 

 6           year to go out and listen all around the 

 7           state to what the needs are.  And one of the 

 8           things I heard was that this idea of blending 

 9           high school and colleges is a decent idea, 

10           especially in rural areas where the expertise 

11           to teach in a particular area might be in the 

12           community college or might be in the SUNY 

13           campus nearby.  

14                  So I wanted to get some of your 

15           thoughts about breaking the silos down 

16           between K-12 and community colleges and 

17           particularly rural SUNYs, but it also may 

18           apply to CUNYs as well.  Because if we've got 

19           someone that can teach a class and we've got 

20           students that need that class, then I think 

21           we ought to -- we may need to figure out a 

22           way to get the two together, whether it's 

23           bringing the professor to the high school or 

24           the student to the college, so they can get 


                                                                   243

 1           that expertise to keep them on a level 

 2           playing field with all of the other, you 

 3           know, educational programs we have in the 

 4           state.  

 5                  I'd like to get your thoughts.  I want 

 6           to first start with Fred, thanks.  

 7                  DR. KOWAL:  Yeah, I think that the 

 8           absolute necessity for the -- for us all to 

 9           understand the economic impact of the 

10           campuses upstate, SUNY -- both community 

11           college and the state ops -- in upstate rural 

12           communities is just immense.  I live in 

13           Cobleskill.  It's a very small rural town.  

14           The reality is the campus is the economy, for 

15           all intents and purposes.  

16                  In order for us to be able to expand 

17           educational opportunities, you are absolutely 

18           correct.  There needs to be a reimagining of 

19           how we can deliver that so more can take 

20           advantage of it.  Absolutely.

21                  ASSEMBLYMAN SMULLEN:  President 

22           Williams, can I get your thoughts here?  

23                  MR. WILLIAMS:  Yes, and I -- to pick 

24           up first on your -- you were talking about 


                                                                   244

 1           the equity initiative.  

 2                  I can say that at community colleges 

 3           we enroll and service more Black students, 

 4           more Latino students, more Asian students and 

 5           more white students from the rural areas than 

 6           do our four-year counterparts.  In this, the 

 7           97 million really would go a long way to 

 8           helping us expand those opportunities and 

 9           those reach-outs for those students, 

10           especially in the rural areas.

11                  ASSEMBLYMAN SMULLEN:  Yeah.  I really 

12           want to talk a little bit more, too, about 

13           the actual percentage model.  You know, from 

14           my point of view the state ought to be 

15           picking up 50 percent of the share, the 

16           student -- or the -- then the community 

17           should be picking up a smaller share, 

18           25 percent.  And the student should be 

19           picking up the least amount of the share.  

20                  That seems to me the way that's more 

21           equitable, particularly for these students 

22           that I have in mind that I think they exist 

23           all over the state.  And, you know, then we 

24           wouldn't have to be digging so hard for TAP 


                                                                   245

 1           and for Excelsior and all these other things 

 2           if we guaranteed that the community college 

 3           students would have the lion's share, just 

 4           like K-12 education picked up by, writ large, 

 5           the state.  

 6                  MR. WILLIAMS:  Yes.  Because in the 

 7           absence, in this case, of the 97 million, we 

 8           would be forced to increase tuition.  

 9                  And if you look at the overall 

10           economic or income demographic of our 

11           community college students, we service and 

12           enroll -- a higher percentage of our students 

13           are Pell-eligible -- 

14                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

15                  CHAIRMAN KRUEGER:  Senator O'Mara, 

16           three minutes.  

17                  SENATOR O'MARA:  Yes, thank you.  

18                  Thank you all for your testimony.  

19           Thank you for the work that you do, and 

20           particularly the work of your membership, 

21           that they do across the state in this great 

22           work.  

23                  I want to direct my question regarding 

24           community colleges to President Williams, if 


                                                                   246

 1           I may.  You mentioned a -- I understand your 

 2           request to get back to a third, a third, a 

 3           third, and that's $97 million to do that, to 

 4           make that equitable.  

 5                  But you also discussed some numbers 

 6           about the disparity in state aid to a 

 7           community college student per year versus a 

 8           four-year student at SUNY, and that seemed to 

 9           be quite a bit off.  I think your numbers 

10           were $19,000 on average for a four-year 

11           student, so just under $5,000 a year?  

12                  MR. WILLIAMS:  Correct.  

13                  SENATOR O'MARA:  And what were your 

14           numbers for a community college student?  

15                  MR. WILLIAMS:  The community college 

16           student -- the total support is about 5500.  

17           Twenty-six of that is from the state; 2900 or 

18           so, based on the 2021-'22 year, came from the 

19           local sponsors, the county.  

20                  SENATOR O'MARA:  So more from the 

21           county than from the state.  

22                  MR. WILLIAMS:  Yes.  

23                  SENATOR O'MARA:  And just a little bit 

24           more than half per year from the state 


                                                                   247

 1           towards that -- towards the student in a 

 2           four-year school versus the two-year school?  

 3                  MR. WILLIAMS:  Well, the student is 

 4           38 percent.  Right, the students pick up -- 

 5                  SENATOR O'MARA:  I want to get at the 

 6           dollar amount you said.  

 7                  MR. WILLIAMS:  The dollar amount?  

 8           Well, the dollar amount overall is -- well, 

 9           580 million for the -- for the student, 

10           525 -- 

11                  SENATOR O'MARA:  I'm talking the state 

12           aid.  The state aid --

13                  MR. WILLIAMS:  State aid.  

14                  SENATOR O'MARA:  -- for a community 

15           college student per year.  

16                  MR. WILLIAMS:  248.  248 million 

17           overall.  

18                  SENATOR O'MARA:  No, individual 

19           student.  

20                  MR. WILLIAMS:  Individual student?  

21           About 26 -- $2600 per year in state aid.  

22                  SENATOR O'MARA:  Okay.  So just over 

23           5000 for two years.  

24                  MR. WILLIAMS:  Yes.  Correct.  


                                                                   248

 1                  SENATOR O'MARA:  For the two-year 

 2           term.  

 3                  MR. WILLIAMS:  Correct.  

 4                  SENATOR O'MARA:  When it's $19,000 for 

 5           the four-year.  And so roughly 4,750 for that 

 6           state student.  

 7                  MR. WILLIAMS:  Yes.  

 8                  SENATOR O'MARA:  It just seems to me 

 9           that our community colleges are targeted 

10           towards those less able to afford to go to a 

11           four-year school, those less likely to go to 

12           a four-year school.  And we want to give 

13           them, I would think, a greater benefit to get 

14           them at least in the door to try to get that 

15           first two years in, and then maybe go further 

16           after that.  

17                  MR. WILLIAMS:  Yes.  

18                  SENATOR O'MARA:  So it seems to me 

19           it's clear that that state assistance portion 

20           should be increased.  And I agree with you.  

21                  MR. WILLIAMS:  Yes.  Yes.  

22                  And what I was saying before, we have 

23           a larger percentage of our students who are 

24           Pell-eligible or Pell recipients, and we use 


                                                                   249

 1           Pell as a proxy or an indicator of household 

 2           income.  And for a student who receives Pell, 

 3           they are at the lowest end of the household 

 4           income scale.  Yet without this increase, if 

 5           you would, we are forced to raise our tuition 

 6           again.  

 7                  SENATOR O'MARA:  Thank you.

 8                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

 9                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Assemblyman 

10           Epstein.

11                  ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN:  I just want to 

12           thank you all for being here.  

13                  It sounds like we all want more 

14           students in the system.  We want to increase 

15           TAP awards.  We want to raise the floor, 

16           access more TAP.  And the EOP program, it 

17           sounds like there's consensus on that.  

18                  Is that what I'm hearing so far today?  

19                  MR. WILLIAMS:  Mm-hmm.

20                  ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN:  On the CUNY 

21           side, we have an issue.  We've been raising 

22           additional funds for CUNY, but we've seen in 

23           the city not -- a cut in the program.  

24                  James, like what do we -- you know, 


                                                                   250

 1           how do we get a maintenance of effort if 

 2           we're raising more money and they're cutting 

 3           services?  What can we do?  

 4                  DR. DAVIS:  Thanks for that question, 

 5           Assemblymember.  

 6                  Yeah, I've scratched my head a number 

 7           of times about how a graduate, a two-time 

 8           graduate of CUNY continues to make cuts to 

 9           the City University.  

10                  But look, I think in fact that there's 

11           a lot that all of us can do, city and the 

12           state, to help to address issues around 

13           retaining the students that come.  And you 

14           will have noticed, if you saw the 

15           university's "Stabilizing the University's 

16           Finances," I think was the title of their 

17           report, staggering numbers around student 

18           retention which I'm sure are not unique to 

19           CUNY.  

20                  But they lose -- the CUNY system, we 

21           have seven community colleges -- lose 

22           40 percent of students between Year 1 and 

23           Year 2.  That shouldn't be that way.  The 

24           four-year colleges lose 20 percent of their 


                                                                   251

 1           students between Year 1 and Year 2.  I mean, 

 2           research is very clear about what it takes to 

 3           retain those students.  

 4                  So it's wonderful, and we should work 

 5           harder to figure out how to bring new 

 6           students in.  But what are we going to do 

 7           when they get there, I feel like is an 

 8           underexamined part of the equation.

 9                  ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN:  So there isn't 

10           enough resources to support the students 

11           while they're there.  You're saying that 

12           those student-to-faculty ratios or the 

13           student support, mentoring programs --

14                  DR. DAVIS:  Absolutely.  All of the 

15           above.  I think research shows access to 

16           full-time faculty, access to mental health 

17           counselors.  If there's issues of food 

18           insecurity, whether those are addressed.  And 

19           academic advising.

20                  ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN:  And do you see 

21           the same thing as at CUNY?  Is it 

22           like there's some issues -- not the cuts 

23           issue, but kind of the maintaining students 

24           at the campuses?  


                                                                   252

 1                  DR. KOWAL:  Absolutely.  And that is 

 2           the most direct way of understanding why we 

 3           constantly ask for more operating aid.  It is 

 4           to get the resources in place in terms of 

 5           professionals who can provide the support 

 6           network to keep students enrolled.  Retention 

 7           is the overriding concern at most of the 

 8           campuses.

 9                  ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN:  So the last 

10           thing is -- we heard a lot about capital 

11           needs from both the SUNY and the CUNY system.  

12           Do you support increasing capital, whether it 

13           is infrastructure for the buildings, moving 

14           to a greener, cleaner environment -- you 

15           know, we've heard a lot about that today. 

16                  DR. KOWAL:  Certainly.  Especially if 

17           it's key to the sustainable clean structures 

18           and so forth, absolutely.

19                  ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN:  Thank you all.

20                  DR. DAVIS:  We do as well.  Yeah, we 

21           support the university's capital request.

22                  ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN:  Thank you.

23                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Senate?

24                  CHAIRMAN KRUEGER:  Senator Murray.


                                                                   253

 1                  SENATOR MURRAY:  Thank you, 

 2           Chairwoman.  

 3                  Thank you, and I'll apologize ahead of 

 4           time; I slipped in a little late.  But I had 

 5           read over, Mr. Williams, your testimony 

 6           already.  

 7                  I have a quick question.  And I know a 

 8           lot of the focus is on obviously the finances 

 9           and tuition and all of this.  But I want to 

10           talk more about the type of students that are 

11           coming.  

12                  There's a misconception that BOCES and 

13           CTE students don't go on to a further higher 

14           education.  Do you see that there is a good 

15           number?  I know the enrollment now is down, 

16           but do you see -- and this is for anyone.  

17           Are you seeing that there is a good number of 

18           BOCES and CTE kids that go on to community 

19           college?  

20                  MR. WILLIAMS:  Yes.  Yes, there is.  

21                  And one of the things that I talked 

22           about before is there are a lot of students 

23           who are coming out of BOCES or the CTE 

24           programs that are going into our workforce 


                                                                   254

 1           development programs.  And unfortunately, a 

 2           lot of the programs -- or students in the 

 3           workforce development curriculum are not 

 4           counted into our standard enrollment.  And 

 5           that's a big problem.  

 6                  It's something I call, like, our ghost 

 7           enrollment.  And it's a growing piece.  As 

 8           more and more students go into, again, in 

 9           healthcare fields -- nursing, dental 

10           hygienist -- HVAC, automotive technology.  A 

11           lot of these programs are maybe from eight 

12           to -- or six to 18 months, and these students 

13           are outside of what you would think of as the 

14           normal enrollment program.  

15                  But students come out -- even before 

16           they graduate, they come out maybe sixty, 

17           $70,000 a year.  And it makes a big 

18           difference.  And it's a growing share of our 

19           overall population or enrollment.  But 

20           unfortunately, they get very little -- they 

21           get no state support.  So it's really -- the 

22           support really comes down to either grants 

23           they receive either locally or nationally, or 

24           a greater share of the cost for those 


                                                                   255

 1           programs are borne by the students 

 2           themselves.

 3                  SENATOR MURRAY:  I have about a minute 

 4           left.  And quickly, a question that I asked 

 5           earlier to Chancellor King was in regards to 

 6           public-private partnerships.  

 7                  Now, in Suffolk Community College the 

 8           trade unions and Orsted all put together a 

 9           training program regarding wind turbines.  

10           And, I mean, that's forward thinking.  That's 

11           great stuff.  Are we seeing more of that, 

12           more partnerships with -- whether it's labor 

13           unions or the private sector?  

14                  MR. WILLIAMS:  Yes, we are.  

15                  And I can think about colleges like 

16           Mohawk Valley Community College, 

17           Hudson Valley Community College.  Monroe 

18           Community College, for example, as well as 

19           Erie Community College.  All of the colleges 

20           in the SUNY system are beginning to develop 

21           more and more public-private partnerships to 

22           train and educate their potential workforce.

23                  SENATOR MURRAY:  That's great.  

24                  Thank you very much.  Keep up the 


                                                                   256

 1           great work.  

 2                  MR. WILLIAMS:  Thank you.

 3                  CHAIRMAN KRUEGER:  Assembly.

 4                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  We go to 

 5           Assemblywoman Forrest.

 6                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FORREST:  Thank you.  

 7                  So I have -- thank you to the whole 

 8           panel, but I have specific questions for 

 9           President Davis and President Kowal.  Okay, 

10           let me start with President Kowal.  

11                  From what we heard from 

12           Chancellor King this morning, the building's 

13           falling apart -- Downstate, meaning SUNY 

14           Downstate, the building's falling apart, we 

15           might as well throw the whole kit and 

16           kaboodle away.  

17                  Can you report back from your 

18           membership what is the actual condition of 

19           the building?  And if you have a dollar 

20           amount, give us some numbers.  

21                  DR. KOWAL:  Thank you very much.  

22                  I would recommend that all members of 

23           the State Legislature who are concerned about 

24           this issue tour the hospital.


                                                                   257

 1                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FORREST:  Yeah.  

 2                  DR. KOWAL:  I was there last week.  It 

 3           is not about to collapse.  It is not falling 

 4           to pieces.  It certainly was more than enough 

 5           to serve as a COVID-only facility that saved 

 6           our lives.  And there are sections of the 

 7           hospital that are basically brand-new.  The 

 8           transplant center.  There's a wing of the 

 9           transplant center -- there's two sections, 

10           and the transplant center is brand new.  

11                  They in fact have a new boiler system.  

12           I wasn't sure what he was talking about in 

13           terms of the cold, damp temperature.  

14                  And also the number that is being used 

15           in terms of the number of patients.  The 

16           administration as well as our members are 

17           reporting there's over 200 patients in that 

18           hospital, and they have been there in terms 

19           of rolling numbers, but obviously over 

20           200 for the past two months.  And so it is 

21           not as, you know, calamitous a situation as 

22           previously stated.  

23                  And furthermore, yes, there has been a 

24           lack of investment in the hospital.  We know 


                                                                   258

 1           this.  But you don't abandon the hospital 

 2           because of errors that were made by a 

 3           previous administration.  You invest in it 

 4           because of its central role in both education 

 5           and healthcare.  

 6                  But with that, I do want to yield to 

 7           my colleagues.

 8                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FORREST:  Thank you so 

 9           much, President Kowal.  

10                  President Davis, yesterday I heard 

11           from the CUNY crew that said that one of 

12           their initiatives to improve efficiency is to 

13           downsize classes -- increase class size, 

14           sorry.  Can you tell me what impact would 

15           that have on especially nontraditional 

16           students who need those sections to be open 

17           to even go to school?  

18                  DR. DAVIS:  Thanks for the question.  

19                  I mean, I think it raises two 

20           concerns.  One is pedagogical:  What's the 

21           proper size of a class, and who determines 

22           that?  Traditionally, and for good reason, 

23           that has been established by professionals 

24           with pedagogical and curricular expertise.  


                                                                   259

 1           That's always under stress in budgetary 

 2           times.  

 3                  But there's also a question of degree 

 4           progress.  When you look at graduation rates 

 5           across CUNY, we want to bring -- I think 

 6           everyone in this room wants to bring up those 

 7           graduation rates.  And unfortunately, one of 

 8           the things that happens when you cut the 

 9           number of classes that's being offered and 

10           move students around, pack lecture halls, is 

11           students don't get the classes they need to 

12           graduate.  It creates a burden on them and 

13           their families and the advisers trying to 

14           resituate them.

15                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FORREST:  Thank you.  

16                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

17                  We go to the Senate.

18                  CHAIRMAN KRUEGER:  Hi.  I think 

19           there's just me left.  

20                  I guess for both of the Professional 

21           Staff Congresses -- although yours has a 

22           different name, so sorry.  I don't know if 

23           you've heard me earlier ask both chancellors 

24           to please get us information on the breakdown 


                                                                   260

 1           of their budgets for salaries and for 

 2           staffing.  And I feel like we haven't looked 

 3           at that in a really long time.  

 4                  But I think the last time we looked at 

 5           it there were concerns that both universities 

 6           are using quite a bit of their money for top 

 7           administrative positions with very high 

 8           salaries, and that those monies in theory 

 9           could be used to make sure we were paying for 

10           the teaching staff that we need at these 

11           schools.  

12                  Has either of your unions looked at 

13           that at all recently, or agree or disagree?  

14           Or maybe I just need to give you the data 

15           when I get it, and you can then look at it 

16           and tell me what you think.  

17                  DR. DAVIS:  Compensation for executive 

18           employees at CUNY -- reining that in is not 

19           going to solve the fundamental problem of 

20           funding the university.  

21                  The issue that we have is that when 

22           austerity is administered to our campuses 

23           because they're trying to manage to 

24           structural deficits, the sacrifice is not 


                                                                   261

 1           shared equally.  

 2                  So I did not see a sacrifice when the 

 3           board of trustees approved 30 percent raises 

 4           for two top executives in the CUNY office in 

 5           2022 and then turned around and told all of 

 6           my colleagues that they needed to cut the 

 7           number of classes, lay off adjunct faculty, 

 8           and we shouldn't expect very much in the next 

 9           contract.  I understand sacrifice, but it 

10           needs to be evenly shared.  

11                  DR. KOWAL:  Yes, I would be very -- as 

12           would my members -- be very interested to see 

13           those numbers were you to get them.  

14                  I think it is -- as James has 

15           indicated, it will not solve all of our 

16           problems in terms of funding if there could 

17           be a corralling of the salaries and a limit 

18           to those salaries.  

19                  But I think that the even greater 

20           point is at a number of our campuses, 

21           administrators have been coming and going at 

22           very high salaries.  And yet now that there 

23           is suddenly a financial crisis, be it at 

24           Downstate or at Potsdam or at Fredonia or 


                                                                   262

 1           Buffalo State or wherever, the burden is 

 2           falling on students, on patients, our 

 3           members, and the community.  

 4                  This is a central question of justice.  

 5           You know, if it is clearly a case where 

 6           administrators have the responsibility to 

 7           manage a campus effectively, it is 

 8           appropriate, I guess, that they get paid for 

 9           it.  But at the same time I sure wish there 

10           was a way of holding those administrators 

11           responsible for their errors or malfeasance 

12           that has led to the crises that we're facing.

13                  CHAIRMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  My time 

14           is up.  Thank you.

15                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Assemblyman 

16           Eachus.

17                  ASSEMBLYMAN EACHUS:  Thank you, Chair.  

18                  It amazes me that I'm sitting here 

19           right now and that I'm breaking state 

20           education law by not supporting the community 

21           college after I sat for 12 years on a county 

22           legislature and had nothing to say, 

23           sometimes, about the state legislators.  

24                  I'm going to concentrate on community 


                                                                   263

 1           colleges.  I'm a double graduate of a 

 2           four-year college, but if you don't mind -- 

 3           and by the way, I come from the Hudson Valley 

 4           and I completely support keeping Downstate 

 5           open.  You have our support the whole way.  

 6           But what I'd like to do is just be sure that 

 7           I understand the situation.  

 8                  The first is, President Davis -- or 

 9           President Williams, TAP.  I'm a cosponsor of 

10           that, I want that to happen.  But TAP follows 

11           the student.  

12                  MR. WILLIAMS:  Correct.

13                  ASSEMBLYMAN EACHUS:  So that really 

14           isn't a solution to the problems that you've 

15           been describing for us.  

16                  MR. WILLIAMS:  Correct.

17                  ASSEMBLYMAN EACHUS:  Okay.  

18                  MR. WILLIAMS:  Yes.

19                  ASSEMBLYMAN EACHUS:  So the 96 million 

20           that you're asking for, and when you talk 

21           about that, is for 20,000 new students, am I 

22           correct, to support 20,000 new students in 

23           the community college system?  

24                  MR. WILLIAMS:  No, not 20,000 new 


                                                                   264

 1           students.  It would enable us to produce 

 2           20,000 students annually that would go into 

 3           the workforce -- the growing workforce 

 4           development field.

 5                  ASSEMBLYMAN EACHUS:  Okay.  

 6                  MR. WILLIAMS:  Okay?

 7                  ASSEMBLYMAN EACHUS:  Okay.  

 8                  MR. WILLIAMS:  So it would enable us 

 9           to create, to expand and maintain the various 

10           programs that would enable us to turn out 

11           these students.

12                  ASSEMBLYMAN EACHUS:  Okay.  And you -- 

13           the few that you mentioned were exactly that.  

14           When you take a look across all 30 community 

15           colleges, we're talking about a number of 

16           workforce development programs overall.  

17                  MR. WILLIAMS:  Yes.

18                  ASSEMBLYMAN EACHUS:  Because in my 

19           particular community college, I mean, we've 

20           done cannabis.  They've added food tech and 

21           so on like that also.  

22                  MR. WILLIAMS:  Yes.

23                  ASSEMBLYMAN EACHUS:  Okay.  So, that's 

24           it.  


                                                                   265

 1                  And the final thing I'd like to say is 

 2           throughout all of our lives, the great 

 3           equalizer was a high school education.  Can 

 4           we agree that that's no longer true?  They 

 5           need some sort of college degree to really 

 6           compete and be equal.  

 7                  MR. WILLIAMS:  Well, yes.  Either 

 8           degree, but not so much the degree that we've 

 9           known in the past, or a certificate or a 

10           certification that says, I am qualified to do 

11           X.  To become an auto technician for Toyota 

12           or Ford.

13                  ASSEMBLYMAN EACHUS:  You're right.  I 

14           stand corrected.  

15                  MR. WILLIAMS:  Yeah.

16                  ASSEMBLYMAN EACHUS:  But it's beyond 

17           high school.  

18                  MR. WILLIAMS:  Yes.  Beyond high 

19           school, correct.

20                  ASSEMBLYMAN EACHUS:  Thank you very 

21           much.  

22                  MR. WILLIAMS:  Yes.

23                  ASSEMBLYMAN EACHUS:  Thank you.

24                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Okay, we go to 


                                                                   266

 1           Assemblywoman Wallace.

 2                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALLACE:  Good 

 3           afternoon.  And thank you so much for all of 

 4           your testimony, for coming here today.  

 5                  Really quickly, I want to say that I 

 6           support the 97 million for the community 

 7           colleges.  We know the unique role that they 

 8           play in workforce development.  

 9                  I would like to have a conversation -- 

10           because I think the answer would take too 

11           long -- to understand a little bit better 

12           ways to streamline that certification and 

13           understand what the barriers are, where you 

14           were saying that the students don't get 

15           support for those programs, that they're 

16           considered sort of nontraditional enrollment.  

17           So I'd like to understand that and see if we 

18           can kind of, you know, streamline that 

19           process to help with the funding in that 

20           regard.  

21                  But my question specifically with the 

22           time that I have left is for Dr. Kowal.  If 

23           the Legislature were to direct the 

24           139 million toward the specific distressed 


                                                                   267

 1           campuses like we tried to do last year, how 

 2           would that help stabilize those specific 

 3           campuses and allow them to come up with their 

 4           own plans to address the enrollment issues 

 5           and potentially rightsize, as we directed 

 6           them to do in the last budget?  In other 

 7           words, would this buy them the time that they 

 8           need to create those strategic plans going 

 9           forward so it's not a continuing deficit?  

10                  DR. KOWAL:  Yeah, thank you very much, 

11           Assemblymember.  

12                  I think that it is crucial for that 

13           funding to be directed at these campuses with 

14           the deficits, remembering that the deficits 

15           have not been caused directly by a fall-off 

16           in enrollment.  The deficits were created by 

17           the underfunding during the Cuomo years.  And 

18           there is this reverberating effect on 

19           enrollment with regard to recruitment, but 

20           especially retention, that we've been talking 

21           about.  

22                  And so you get rid of that deficit, 

23           you get to a situation where -- we know from 

24           our members that when they hear from the 


                                                                   268

 1           administration, that is always the 

 2           centerpiece of the conversation:  We have 

 3           this deficit, we've got to deal with this 

 4           deficit.  And that constrains their choices 

 5           as to how they can move forward.  

 6                  I do want to make one point that I 

 7           know -- and I heard the chancellor over and 

 8           over point out that there were 

 9           double-digit-percentage increases in direct 

10           aid to campuses.  Well, if the base that is 

11           being increased is very small, it doesn't 

12           matter if it's a double-digit increase, it's 

13           still a small amount of money.  

14                  And so it is imperative that the 

15           actual amount of these deficits be addressed 

16           so that then there can be a more broader 

17           discussion about the future of institutions 

18           and their role in the SUNY system.

19                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALLACE:  Thank you.  

20                  I'd love to follow up with you later 

21           on that.  

22                  DR. KOWAL:  Okay.  

23                  MR. WILLIAMS:  In a few minutes, I 

24           just want to pick up on something that 


                                                                   269

 1           Mr. Kowal said.  

 2                  You know, last year, we received the 

 3           floor.  We asked for the floor plus 

 4           4 percent.  We received the floor, which 

 5           we're appreciative of, but the CPI last year 

 6           was 3.2 percent.  The core CPI was 4.7.  So 

 7           although we got the floor, we in essence 

 8           still received a cut.

 9                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALLACE:  Thank you.  

10                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

11                  And to close with the questions for 

12           this panel, Assemblywoman Simon.

13                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON:  So thank you all 

14           for your testimony.  And, you know, with 

15           regard to community colleges, thank you for 

16           your testimony.  

17                  It's -- it's -- community colleges 

18           really are also the entry point for so many 

19           students with disabilities, and that is a 

20           critical element that we forget about.  But 

21           also those other training programs that are 

22           not necessarily degree programs are a great 

23           service that community colleges provide.  So, 

24           you know, I think that you've addressed a lot 


                                                                   270

 1           of the ways we could help with that.  But I 

 2           think that we're all in agreement with that 

 3           approach.  

 4                  With regard to SUNY -- and I know 

 5           we're sort of a little fixated on Downstate 

 6           these days -- clearly one of the big 

 7           challenges is the long-term disinvestment, 

 8           which is both -- it's an issue throughout 

 9           higher education, the long-term disinvestment 

10           particularly with the prior administration.  

11                  If you had your druthers, what would 

12           we do?  Like in other words, we should have 

13           been investing all along.  You can't just 

14           make up that difference.  How could we 

15           rightsize this, this whole -- and level this 

16           playing field differently?  

17                  DR. KOWAL:  Well, I'll start with -- 

18           again, I know we're fixated on Downstate for 

19           now because they are talking about it, a 

20           closure that would impact, you know, the 

21           community and certainly the healthcare in the 

22           community.  

23                  What we are calling for is for first 

24           this present plan to be abandoned 


                                                                   271

 1           immediately, but that the Legislature take up 

 2           legislation that has been proposed, passed 

 3           the Senate last year, introduced on the 

 4           Senate side by Senator Myrie.  And the goal 

 5           of that legislation was to keep the hospital 

 6           open, to maintain its public nature, it's 

 7           teaching nature.  At the same time, to call 

 8           on the Department of Health to bring together 

 9           all stakeholders to come up with a plan that 

10           springs from the community and serves their 

11           interests.  We start with the community.  

12           That is imperative.  

13                  And as that develops, then the state 

14           must put the investment into the institution.  

15           As you well know, this is an institution that 

16           is number one among 143 hospitals in terms of 

17           the percentage of Medicaid patients.  It will 

18           never be a massively profitable institution.  

19           Those patients need healthcare.  Eliminating 

20           the hospital does not solve the problem that 

21           you have thousands and thousands of Medicaid 

22           patients.  They're going to have to go 

23           somewhere.  So the investment is needed 

24           following an inclusive plan that springs from 


                                                                   272

 1           the community.  

 2                  On the campus side, invest to 

 3           eliminate the deficits created in the 

 4           Cuomo years, and let's plan for a sustainable 

 5           future for all the campuses.

 6                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON:  Thank you.  

 7                  And CUNY, you would have a similar 

 8           comment?  Because I know you guys have a 

 9           similar issue with the lack of investment.  

10                  DR. DAVIS:  We ran out of time, but 

11           I'll be glad to speak with you offline.  

12           Thanks for the question.

13                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON:  Thank you.

14                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Actually, if 

15           you can send the response in writing to the 

16           committee so we can share with all of our 

17           colleagues here.  

18                  DR. DAVIS:  Thank you.

19                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  So I want to 

20           thank this panel for being here today.  

21                  And we are going to move on to 

22           Panel C:  New York State University Police 

23           Lieutenants Benevolent Association; Graduate 

24           Student Employees Union of Communications 


                                                                   273

 1           Workers 1104; Association of Private 

 2           Colleges; New York State Academic Dental 

 3           Centers; and Commission on Independent 

 4           Colleges and Universities.  

 5                  And I would just ask that the people 

 6           who are testifying -- listed as testifying in 

 7           the final panel make their way down to the 

 8           front of the hearing room so that we'll be 

 9           able to start that panel expeditiously when 

10           we conclude here.  

11                  So if we can go in the order listed, 

12           starting with New York State University 

13           Police.  

14                  MR. McCARTNEY:  Good afternoon.  My 

15           name is James McCartney.  I'm the president 

16           of the PBA of New York State, which 

17           represents New York State University Police, 

18           Environmental Conservation Officers, Forest 

19           Rangers, and Park Police Officers.  

20                  We're grateful that the State 

21           Legislature has stood with us for the past 

22           four years, overwhelmingly passing 

23           legislation that provides PBA of New York 

24           State members with the same 20-year pension 


                                                                   274

 1           that 96 percent of police officers and 

 2           firefighters in the state already receive.  

 3                  Sadly, your 20-year pension 

 4           legislation has now been vetoed three times 

 5           by Governor Hochul.  Our members have spent 

 6           the last several years living in a 

 7           demoralizing version of the movie "Groundhog 

 8           Day," in which the same cycle repeats over 

 9           and over.  The Legislature passes our 20-year 

10           retirement bill, the Governor receives your 

11           bill at the end of the year, the Governor 

12           vetoes the legislation, stating it needs to 

13           be part of the State Budget.  By the time the 

14           veto is issued, the following year's budget 

15           has already been drafted without the 20-year 

16           retirement.  Rinse and repeat year after 

17           year.  

18                  We ask that the Legislature please add 

19           our 20-year into your one-house legislative 

20           budget proposals and force the issue during 

21           budget negotiations.  We see no other way to 

22           meet the Governor's procedural demands and 

23           deliver the retirement parity you strongly 

24           and consistently support for our members and 


                                                                   275

 1           their families.  

 2                  Over the past three years we have lost 

 3           200 New York State University Police 

 4           Officers.  Only 20 percent were due to 

 5           retirements; the rest were officers who 

 6           resigned to take jobs elsewhere.  In the same 

 7           period of time, we have seen 372 officers 

 8           across all four of our units leave service.  

 9           Less than one-third were due to retirement.  

10                  These numbers are staggering, 

11           alarming, and unsustainable.  The University 

12           Police Officers enforce extreme risk 

13           protection orders, deal with violent 

14           assaults, drug trafficking, sexual assault, 

15           domestic violence, dangerous and illegal 

16           weapons, as well as responding to thousands 

17           of mental health crisis calls each year.  

18                  State University Police Officers saved 

19           the lives of 1,011 individuals in 2023 who 

20           were taken into custody pursuant to Mental 

21           Health Law Provision 941.  University Police 

22           Officers safely transported these individuals 

23           to hospitals to undergo mental health 

24           evaluations to prevent them from causing harm 


                                                                   276

 1           to themselves or another.  

 2                  To provide the highest level of 

 3           services and safety, we must adapt 

 4           structurally.  State University policing is 

 5           fragmented, with 28 individual police 

 6           departments in our four-year campuses and a 

 7           patchwork of security personnel at our 

 8           community college campuses.  

 9                  Policies vary across campuses, and 

10           there is no standardization of equipment or 

11           uniforms.  Hiring and transfers between 

12           campuses are hampered.  And there is no 

13           central point of reporting within the SUNY 

14           administrative system, which makes 

15           data-driven-based policing difficult at best 

16           and unattainable at worst.  

17                  In closing, I would like to say that 

18           our members and their families need not live 

19           through a cycle of uncertainty and 

20           disappointment.  The State Senate and 

21           Assembly have the ability to bring an end to 

22           our 20-year retirement "Groundhog Day" by 

23           working with Governor Hochul to include 

24           pension parity in the final budget.  Your 


                                                                   277

 1           decisive leadership and perseverance can see 

 2           this into fruition.  

 3                  I thank you for the opportunity to 

 4           present this testimony, and I thank you for 

 5           your ongoing support of higher education.

 6                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

 7                  Next.  

 8                  MR. HERSHENSON:  Good afternoon, 

 9           Assemblymembers, Senators, and Committee 

10           Chairs.  Thank you very much for taking the 

11           time to host a hearing on higher education.  

12                  My name is Brad Hershenson.  I'm a 

13           graduate student at the University at Albany 

14           and a business agent for the Graduate Student 

15           Employees' Union CWA Local 1104.  We 

16           represent nearly 5,000 graduate students 

17           across SUNY and other campuses in our state 

18           that are graduate assistants, teaching 

19           assistants, instructors of record, and the 

20           folks who really are the backbone of SUNY.  

21                  We teach almost 40 percent of the 

22           classes at SUNY, and our members conduct 

23           amazing research in a variety of fields such 

24           as humanities, science, and technology -- all 


                                                                   278

 1           that helps New York pave the way for a better 

 2           future for all.  

 3                  We must address the important issues 

 4           surrounding our system, addressing the needs 

 5           of our students and campuses by enhancing 

 6           support for our programs, including mental 

 7           health services, which is key this year.  

 8                  As we continue to celebrate the 

 9           50th anniversary of the Tuition Assistance 

10           Program, which has helped countless students 

11           and families across our state for decades, it 

12           is imperative to highlight its successes and 

13           further enact enhancements to the program.  

14           Expansions were finally made regarding 

15           eligibility for incarcerated students, 

16           part-time TAP -- thank you very much for 

17           doing that.  Now is the time to make 

18           expansions and enhancements to the program so 

19           even more students and more families can join 

20           the SUNY family and thrive together.  

21                  For example, expansions can be made to 

22           lift the income caps to make more students 

23           eligible.  The forms and documentation 

24           necessary to apply to the program can be made 


                                                                   279

 1           further user-friendly.  We were excited to 

 2           hear Dr. Linares announce a revamp of the 

 3           website, and we look forward to that.  

 4                  Additionally, expansions can be made 

 5           to allow for other costs to be covered -- for 

 6           example, textbooks, laptops, and other 

 7           equipment, items that are not tuition and 

 8           fees.  These are the real costs associated 

 9           with pursuing a degree at any level.  

10                  Lastly, our graduate students need 

11           support.  We very much appreciate your hard 

12           work and the funding made available to 

13           alleviate the plight that we face with 

14           respect to our fees as workers, and we hope 

15           that you'll continue to address college 

16           affordability this session through 

17           Graduate TAP and other expansions.  

18                  As we know, many of our SUNY campuses 

19           are engines of economic opportunity.  So 

20           these kinds of enhancements to the TAP 

21           program and aid to support our campuses will 

22           help to skyrocket enrollment and act as an 

23           investment in our students and an investment 

24           in our state.  


                                                                   280

 1                  For example, on my campus, 

 2           President Havidan Rodriguez at the 

 3           University at Albany has recently announced 

 4           the new strategic plan for our university, 

 5           which has goals to leverage our research 

 6           success to drive economic workforce 

 7           development with more funded graduate 

 8           students.  Needless to say, it's time to turn 

 9           on the TAP.  Let's increase our funding to 

10           public universities and expand and enhance 

11           the programs that directly impact academic 

12           excellence and student success.

13                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you, 

14           Bradley.  

15                  The Association of Private Colleges.  

16                  MS. STELLING-GURNETT:  Good afternoon, 

17           Chairwomen Fahy, Stavisky, Weinstein, and 

18           Krueger, and members of the Legislature.  

19           Thank you for this opportunity to share this 

20           testimony on behalf of the Association of 

21           Private Colleges.  

22                  My name is Donna Stelling-Gurnett, and 

23           I am the president of APC.  

24                  I would like to begin by thanking the 


                                                                   281

 1           Senate and the Assembly Higher Ed committees 

 2           for their commitment to making much-needed 

 3           changes to the Tuition Assistance Program.  

 4           APC fully supports your Turn on the TAP 

 5           campaign and the proposed package of bills 

 6           that would expand access to this program.  

 7                  We are grateful that the TAP program 

 8           has supported our students since its 

 9           inception nearly 50 years ago.  However, the 

10           most recent HESC annual report shows there 

11           has been a 15 percent decrease in utilization 

12           since 2017, as the program has become more 

13           and more outdated.  APC would strongly 

14           encourage the Legislature to evaluate the 

15           program with a focus on changes that would 

16           increase access to TAP -- for instance, 

17           allowing students attending proprietary 

18           colleges access to part-time TAP.  

19                  For APC, this is an equity issue.  Our 

20           students are facing the same challenges as 

21           students in other sectors of higher ed.  They 

22           are also balancing work and family priorities 

23           along with their class schedules and deserve 

24           the same flexibility to attend part-time if 


                                                                   282

 1           they need to.  

 2                  Without the support of a prorated TAP 

 3           award, these students may need to take out 

 4           student loans or may decide not to enroll at 

 5           all.  So we would ask the Legislature to 

 6           ensure that all students have equal access to 

 7           part-time TAP and support Assembly Bill 5833, 

 8           sponsored by Assemblywoman Hyndman, and 

 9           Senate Bill 6466, sponsored by 

10           Senator Fernandez.  

11                  APC also supports proposals that would 

12           increase the cap on earnings for single 

13           individuals with no dependents.  A modest 

14           step forward would be increasing the earnings 

15           cap from 10,000 to 30,000 and for married 

16           applicants from 40,000 to 60,000 for TAP 

17           eligibility.  

18                  The current income thresholds are 

19           significantly outdated and easily surpassed, 

20           even for those working at or below the 

21           poverty level.  A bolder step would be to 

22           eliminate the distinction between dependent 

23           and independent students entirely for the 

24           purposes of determining TAP eligibility.  


                                                                   283

 1                  In closing, I will say the original 

 2           goals of TAP continue to hold true today.  We 

 3           know that investments in higher education 

 4           will yield a stronger workforce and economic 

 5           growth.  We know that students who are 

 6           successful in higher education invest back 

 7           into their local communities.  

 8                  And we also know that the student 

 9           demographics, institutions of higher 

10           education, the workforce, and the economy of 

11           today are very different than they were 

12           50 years ago.  So it's time to build a better 

13           TAP program, and APC looks forward to working 

14           with you on that.  

15                  And with that, I'll end my remarks.  

16           Thank you.

17                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

18                  New York State Academic Dental 

19           Centers.  

20                  MS. TASSLER:  Good afternoon, 

21           Chairs Weinstein, Krueger, Fahy, Stavisky, 

22           and other distinguished members of the 

23           Legislature.  Thank you for this opportunity 

24           to testify on the Executive Budget proposal 


                                                                   284

 1           for state fiscal year 2025.  

 2                  My name is Jennifer Tassler.  I'm the 

 3           vice president for government relations and 

 4           strategic affairs at the New York State 

 5           Academic Dental Centers, also known as 

 6           NYSDAC.  NYSDAC is a consortium of the six 

 7           dental schools in New York State.  

 8                  NYSDAC works in partnership with its 

 9           members to advance dental education and to 

10           address disparities in oral healthcare, 

11           particularly for those people with special 

12           needs, including intellectual and 

13           developmental disabilities.  Individuals with 

14           I/DD bear a disproportionately high burden of 

15           oral disease and remain at a higher risk of 

16           oral diseases throughout their lives, and 

17           systemic barriers to access have contributed 

18           to chronically poor oral health and overall 

19           health for people with I/DD.  

20                  There is a persistent shortage of 

21           dental providers in the U.S. who treat 

22           patients with moderate to severe I/DD, with 

23           only 10 percent of general-practice dentists 

24           reporting that they regularly treat 


                                                                   285

 1           individuals with these conditions.  There 

 2           have been efforts by CODA to include 

 3           additional training and exposure during 

 4           dental school, but there is a gap in 

 5           providers to treat these patients.  

 6                  In recent years, the number of 

 7           advanced training options for dentists in 

 8           New York State has dwindled, and to address 

 9           this, in 2021 NYSDAC launched the Fellowship 

10           to Address Oral Health Disparities.  The 

11           program has been supported by the Legislature 

12           since 2022 -- thank you.  And we have trained 

13           three dentists who are committing to work in 

14           New York with this population for at least 

15           one year after their fellowship.  Our current 

16           fellow is in her final six months of 

17           training, and the first two fellows are 

18           working in the Hudson Valley and in the 

19           Bronx.  

20                  Our goal is to support six fellows 

21           across the state each year to improve access 

22           to high-quality care for individuals with 

23           I/DD.  

24                  NYSDAC is also working with 


                                                                   286

 1           specialists at the dental schools to develop 

 2           a unified curriculum and to coordinate 

 3           teaching and research experience for the 

 4           fellows.  NYSDAC is working toward additional 

 5           ways to incentivize dentists to care for 

 6           patients with special needs, including 

 7           practice support, loan repayments, additional 

 8           training, and increased reimbursement.  

 9                  We support the proposal in the 

10           1115 waiver to provide loan repayment for 

11           dentists who care for a significant number of 

12           patients with Medicaid; the expansion of 

13           doctors across New York to include dentists, 

14           with additional funding to support them; and 

15           programs like Take A Look, which helps 

16           introduce rural practice settings to 

17           early-career dentists and students.  

18                  New York State's Academic Dental 

19           Centers urge the Legislature to continue 

20           funding for the state fiscal year 2024-'25 to 

21           support these fellowships and other paths to 

22           provide advanced clinical training in the 

23           provision of oral healthcare for people with 

24           intellectual and developmental disabilities.  


                                                                   287

 1                  Thank you for this opportunity, and I 

 2           look forward to your questions.

 3                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

 4                  And lastly, Commission on Independent 

 5           Colleges and Universities.  

 6                  MS. BRABHAM:  Good afternoon, 

 7           Chairpersons, and all of the members of the 

 8           committee.  I appreciate the opportunity to 

 9           testify on behalf of the independent sector 

10           of higher education on the 2025 Executive 

11           Budget.  

12                  From the banning of affirmative action 

13           by the United States Supreme Court, to 

14           federally proposed cuts to student aid, to 

15           the continued delays in rolling out the new 

16           FAFSA, higher education stands at a national 

17           crossroads, and the path we choose today will 

18           shape the future for generations to come.  

19                  New York has always been unwavering in 

20           its commitment to breaking down institutional 

21           and systemic barriers to higher education and 

22           to creating opportunity for all.  We 

23           recognize the significant economic, health, 

24           and social benefits that completing a college 


                                                                   288

 1           degree provides.  

 2                  Unfortunately, the Executive Budget 

 3           includes misguided proposals that threaten 

 4           decades of work to ensure that more students 

 5           can benefit from higher education.  

 6                  We were disheartened by the proposal 

 7           to eliminate Bundy Aid for campuses with 

 8           endowments greater than $750 million.  

 9           Bundy Aid is outcome-based and 

10           student-focused.  Colleges receive funding 

11           based on the number of degrees they confer, 

12           and the funding is invested back into the 

13           programs to help more students graduate.  

14                  This proposal perpetuates the 

15           misconception that most independent colleges 

16           and universities have big, unregulated 

17           endowments that can be spent however an 

18           institution decides.  In fact, endowments are 

19           restricted in how they can be spent.  In 

20           '21-'22, 46 percent of independent-sector 

21           endowment spending went to student aid.  

22                  This cut will increase costs for 

23           hardworking students and their families who 

24           rely on the financial support provided by 


                                                                   289

 1           Bundy Aid.  New York should not be balancing 

 2           its budget on the backs of these students, 

 3           and we strongly urge you to reject this 

 4           proposal.  

 5                  Last year, the Legislature provided an 

 6           increase to education opportunity programs in 

 7           the enacted budget, but it was cut from this 

 8           year's budget proposal.  These proven 

 9           programs need additional investment to 

10           continue providing high-quality educational 

11           support, and we urge you to stand up for 

12           student aid and increase funding for 

13           educational opportunity programs by 

14           20 percent.  

15                  This year marks the 50th anniversary 

16           of TAP.  TAP has been a major vehicle for 

17           student success in higher education, with 

18           over 6 million New Yorkers benefiting from 

19           it.  Unfortunately, the program has 

20           stagnated.  We're hopeful that, with your 

21           leadership, the state will finally increase 

22           the income limit and awards levels, provide 

23           independent students with full benefits, and 

24           restore Graduate TAP for students seeking 


                                                                   290

 1           careers in critical fields.  

 2                  We're pleased that Governor Hochul 

 3           announced the creation of the Empire AI 

 4           Consortium to secure New York's place at the 

 5           forefront of artificial intelligence.  This 

 6           consortium includes several CICU member 

 7           campuses, which highlights the critical role 

 8           independent colleges play in creating jobs 

 9           and strengthening our state's economy.  But 

10           notably, the proposal to cut Bundy Aid 

11           targets these same campuses.  

12                  The independent sector participates in 

13           a national consortium to transform early 

14           literacy instruction.  As our sector awards 

15           55 percent of education degrees, we fully 

16           support the Governor's "Back to Basics" plan 

17           to include reading proficiency.

18                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

19                  We go to our Higher Education chair, 

20           Pat Fahy.

21                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  Thank you, Chair.  

22           And thanks to the entire panel.  

23                  And I know we've got a lot of issues 

24           covered here, so I'll try to be as brief as 


                                                                   291

 1           possible.  Let me just start with a couple of 

 2           comments somewhat in order.  

 3                  But to our University Police, all of 

 4           our University Police, including our 

 5           Director James McCartney, we hear you.  We 

 6           hear you on the "Groundhog Day."  And I know 

 7           that there's yet another effort that has a 

 8           lot of support this year.  So let's hope we 

 9           can move on on that.  

10                  Thank you to our graduate students.  

11           The business agent, Mr. Hershenhorn -- 

12           Hershenson, I know that name -- in terms of 

13           your work last year, to get the grad student 

14           fees addressed.  I'm incredibly proud of 

15           that, along with our work with the Senate and 

16           Chair Stavisky.  So really pleased, thank you 

17           for the Turn on the TAP, getting that plug 

18           in.  As you know, that's where we are going.  

19                  Very briefly on that, a question on 

20           that.  If we were to include graduate 

21           students in TAP, do you have an estimate of 

22           what you think that might make a -- how much 

23           a difference that might make with students?  

24           Of restoring the TAP access for grad 


                                                                   292

 1           students.  

 2                  MR. HERSHENSON:  Sure.  Just briefly, 

 3           some of our students in our bargaining unit 

 4           make close to $10,000 or $11,000 a year.  So 

 5           to have access to this money to pursue our 

 6           education is extremely important.  

 7                  And we're operating and conducting 

 8           research in AI and science, technology -- 

 9           we're at the forefront of what's happening in 

10           New York State.  So that would really be a 

11           tremendous help.

12                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  Thank you.  

13                  And I want to ask the APC as well.  

14           Donna Stelling-Gurnett, the president, any 

15           sense of what the Hyndman bill might include 

16           in terms of TAP students?  

17                  MS. STELLING-GURNETT:  So how many 

18           students would be affected?

19                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  Roughly, yes.  

20                  MS. STELLING-GURNETT:  That's a darned 

21           good question.  Thank you for asking that.  

22                  I'd have to go back and check with our 

23           members, but I do know that we have several 

24           graduate programs among APC schools, so I'm 


                                                                   293

 1           sure that it would be, at the least, several 

 2           hundred if not several thousand.

 3                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  Thank you.  

 4                  And with regard to our dental centers, 

 5           thank you so much too, Ms. Tassler.  We have 

 6           a whole program we are trying to address.  

 7           Thank you for mentioning a few of those, 

 8           including the Doctors Across New York and 

 9           Take a Look.  

10                  We're also looking at the dental 

11           therapist program as well as the dental 

12           hygienist, and with that I'm going to turn to 

13           the CICU president, Ms. Brabham.  Oh, my 

14           gosh, and we've known each other for 

15           20 years.  

16                  (Laughter.) 

17                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  Bundy Aid.  That 

18           was a bit of a surprise.  How many students 

19           do you estimate that that -- that cuts the 

20           proposed -- the Governor's proposed cut on 

21           that program, how many students might be 

22           affected by that?  

23                  MS. BRABHAM:  Listen, that cut will 

24           cut across our entire sector.  You know, we 


                                                                   294

 1           have 110 campuses -- 

 2                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  Okay.  

 3                  MS. BRABHAM:  We're going to -- 

 4                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  We're going to 

 5           continue that conversation.  

 6                  MS. BRABHAM:  Yeah, okay.

 7                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  Thank you for 

 8           being here today.  

 9                  Thank you, Chair.

10                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

11                  We go to the Senate.

12                  CHAIRMAN KRUEGER:  Oh, hello, we're 

13           the Senate.  

14                  Why don't we try Toby Stavisky, our 

15           chair.

16                  SENATOR STAVISKY:  There we go.  I'm 

17           not even going to ask you about Bundy Aid, 

18           because I haven't -- I still haven't figured 

19           out the rationale.  The relationship between 

20           endowments and students was limited in time.  

21                  MS. BRABHAM:  Yeah, we don't think 

22           that there is a relationship.

23                  SENATOR STAVISKY:  So let me ask you 

24           instead, Ms. Brabham, a couple of other 


                                                                   295

 1           questions.  

 2                  Before I do, real quick, thank you to 

 3           the SUNY Police for what you do -- we know 

 4           about the 20-year retirement and how 

 5           important it is -- and to Brad and the 

 6           graduate students, and everybody else, APC.  

 7                  Let me ask CICU, real quick, I've been 

 8           troubled by the college closures, both 

 9           Saint Rose and Cazenovia.  Are there steps 

10           that can be taken to avert further closures?  

11                  MS. BRABHAM:  Senator, I think that 

12           the best thing that the Legislature could do 

13           to avoid future college closures is fund 

14           student aid.  Right?  So that students have 

15           the tuition that they need to pay tuition, 

16           campuses have what they need to operate.  

17                  And this does take us back to 

18           Bundy Aid because, as you know, Bundy Aid is 

19           the only form of operating aid that our 

20           campuses get.  It's only $35 million spread 

21           across 110 campuses, and that's only 

22           18 percent of the statutory level.  

23                  So that's the most important thing 

24           that the Legislature can do for us this year.


                                                                   296

 1                  SENATOR STAVISKY:  In terms of the 

 2           questions that I asked Dr. Linares on the 

 3           independent TAP fiasco -- you know the word, 

 4           I think -- how are you dealing with the 

 5           billings of the colleges for their mistakes, 

 6           for government's mistakes?  

 7                  MS. BRABHAM:  Yeah, so the billings to 

 8           the colleges would be on HESC to do.  We've 

 9           been talking with HESC and, you know, trying 

10           to encourage them to hold students harmless.  

11           We don't think it's fair that this three-year 

12           lookback should be on the shoulders of 

13           students.  

14                  This was an administrative error that 

15           happened at HESC.  And we think that -- and 

16           especially since it happened over pandemic 

17           years.  You know, our students are burdened 

18           enough, and we think there's an 

19           administrative solution that could be found 

20           without having to burden the students even 

21           further to have them come up with this 

22           repayment of the overpayment.

23                  SENATOR STAVISKY:  And lastly, the 

24           enrollment questions.  The declining 


                                                                   297

 1           enrollments have been brought up.  How are 

 2           the private independent colleges and the 

 3           proprietaries doing in terms of enrollment?  

 4                  Ten seconds each.  

 5                  MS. BRABHAM:  So, yeah, I mean, 

 6           there's been declines in enrollment over the 

 7           past decade, and we're all, you know, 

 8           impacted by it.  You know, the biggest impact 

 9           was after the pandemic, of course, but 

10           campuses are bouncing back.  Some more 

11           quickly than others.  Obviously the larger 

12           institutions with, you know, international 

13           reputations have, you know, bounced back more 

14           quickly.  

15                  MS. STELLING-GURNETT:  I would just 

16           say I agree.  It's the same with our member 

17           institutions.

18                  SENATOR STAVISKY:  Sorry.  Thank you 

19           all for coming.

20                  CHAIRMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

21                  Assemblymember Ra.

22                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Thank you.  

23                  Ms. Brabham, if you want to finish 

24           your answer to Chair Fahy, I'd appreciate 


                                                                   298

 1           that, because I wanted to ask about Bundy Aid 

 2           as well.  

 3                  We were talking about the impact 

 4           across the colleges, and I am particularly -- 

 5                  MS. BRABHAM:  Yes, I was just saying 

 6           that the cut -- you know, it cuts across our 

 7           entire sector.  I don't have an exact number 

 8           of students that would be impacted, but I can 

 9           certainly get back to you on that.  But the 

10           value of the cut is $18 million.

11                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Do you know how many 

12           institutions are under that or above that 

13           number?  

14                  MS. BRABHAM:  So 17 institutions will 

15           be impacted.  Yeah.

16                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  And I assume 

17           there's -- I'm sure there's some that are in 

18           the ballpark that, you know, would like to 

19           see their endowment continue to grow.  And 

20           then that's a kind of weird position to put 

21           somebody in -- 

22                  MS. BRABHAM:  Yeah, but a point to be 

23           made, though, on that $750 million threshold 

24           is that, you know, we think it's an arbitrary 


                                                                   299

 1           metric because it doesn't take into account 

 2           the size of the institution, the number of 

 3           students, the number of FTEs and, you know, 

 4           how that -- the restrictions around how that 

 5           money can be spent.

 6                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  So for you, and I 

 7           guess APC as well, we've been through 

 8           different iterations of different aid 

 9           programs and stuff.  And we've seen this 

10           before, you know, exclusions that 

11           unfortunately treat different students in 

12           New York State, depending on where they're 

13           going, differently.  

14                  And, you know, as we talk about TAP 

15           and all of these things, I don't think that 

16           should be the case.  I think that's one of 

17           the great things about the TAP program is it 

18           gives that opportunity to the student to 

19           utilize that funding in the way that best 

20           advances their education and their future 

21           career goals.  

22                  So if you can comment on that.  

23                  MS. BRABHAM:  I agree.  

24                  And I think we should expand the 


                                                                   300

 1           program.  I think it's important that TAP 

 2           follow the student and that we support 

 3           student choice about where they, you know, 

 4           choose to go to school.  

 5                  MS. STELLING-GURNETT:  I would also 

 6           agree.  

 7                  I think, you know, the Tuition 

 8           Assistance Program is incredibly important to 

 9           all of our students.  And I do think that 

10           it's fair that it, you know, follows the 

11           student no matter where they choose to go.  

12           They should be able to choose whatever 

13           institution is the best fit for them, so. 

14                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  And then, lastly, for 

15           CICU, the topic came up earlier about the 

16           Enhanced Tuition Award, you know, and the 

17           number of colleges participating has come 

18           down.  And I'd say that's a sizable number.  

19                  What should we be looking at to try 

20           to, you know, expand these programs?  Is it 

21           just as simple as what we're saying, let's 

22           make TAP more of a choice for the student 

23           rather than having all these different 

24           programs that are meant to maybe mirror but 


                                                                   301

 1           don't really provide the same benefit?  

 2                  MS. BRABHAM:  Well, if we're talking 

 3           specifically of the ETA, you know, one of the 

 4           reasons why utilization of that program is 

 5           down is just simply because of the timing of 

 6           the awards.  It comes too late for students 

 7           to be able to factor that into their 

 8           financial aid package when they're making a 

 9           decision about where to go to college.

10                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Thank you.

11                  CHAIRMAN KRUEGER:  Senator Lea Webb.

12                  SENATOR WEBB:  Thank you all for being 

13           here.  

14                  I just have two quick questions.  One 

15           for you, President Brabham, with regards to 

16           the Bundy Aid.  

17                  My question is if you can just 

18           elaborate on how this proposal will -- like 

19           what's the plan?  How will programs need to 

20           be cut to compensate for this new limitation 

21           that's been proposed by the administration?  

22                  MS. BRABHAM:  So essentially what it 

23           does is takes away Bundy Aid completely, 

24           which, you know, impacts a campus's 


                                                                   302

 1           flexibility to be able to offer scholarships, 

 2           other forms of student aid, put additional 

 3           funding into research if needed.  Those are 

 4           the things that Bundy Aid funds.

 5                  SENATOR WEBB:  Okay, thank you.  

 6                  And then my next question is for 

 7           Bradley.  With respect to the Graduate 

 8           Student Employees Union, I know last year we 

 9           spent a lot of time talking about addressing 

10           graduate student fees, which was a big 

11           priority -- still is -- with regards to 

12           graduate students.  And we're happy to see 

13           that we're able to address that.  

14                  I just want to go to TAP for a moment.  

15           I know we're spending a lot of time talking 

16           about raising the income eligibility 

17           threshold -- which, you know, again is 

18           important, but I wanted to know if you could 

19           elaborate on, in looking at your testimony, 

20           the actual award amount.  I know that also is 

21           very crucial with regards to students.  

22                  Again, I also was a student that 

23           received TAP and Pell, and I was also an EOP 

24           student.  So I was wondering if you could 


                                                                   303

 1           just kind of elaborate on what raising that 

 2           award amount, what that means for grad 

 3           students and undergrad students.  Thank you.  

 4                  MR. HERSHENSON:  Sure.  

 5                  And I just want to start by thanking 

 6           you for your hard work on the fees 

 7           legislation.  We were in a pay-to-work system 

 8           last year where our graduate workers had to 

 9           pay to have the jobs that we have on our 

10           campuses.  

11                  Just taking a look at the income 

12           threshold and the TAP program itself, the 

13           last increase to the income threshold was in 

14           the year 2000.  That's when I started 

15           kindergarten, and now I'm doing my Ph.D.

16                  (Laughter.)

17                  MR. HERSHENSON:  So some of these 

18           programs we need to take a look at and maybe 

19           reevaluate some of the metrics in what we're 

20           offering to our students.  Because in my 

21           testimony I use the word "investment," and I 

22           say putting this money into our SUNY campuses 

23           is an investment because we will pay back 

24           that investment to New York State.  


                                                                   304

 1                  Our graduate workers conduct research, 

 2           we work on our SUNY campuses, we teach 

 3           40 percent of the classes at SUNY.  And we 

 4           will pay back that investment through our 

 5           income tax, our property taxes, the houses we 

 6           buy, what we do in this economy.  So it's 

 7           really strongly important to us as graduate 

 8           workers in New York.

 9                  SENATOR WEBB:  Thank you so much.  

10                  MR. HERSHENSON:  Thank you.

11                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

12                  Assemblywoman Simon.  

13                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON:  Thank you.  

14                  So, Ms. Tassler, I don't know that I 

15           was aware of your organization, but I have 

16           been to NYU's facility, which is fabulous.  

17           So thank you for that work.  

18                  And if I could, Ms. Brabham, I have a 

19           question for you because we've been talking a 

20           lot about, you know, the state budget.  

21           Obviously that's what we're here for.  But 

22           there are a lot of issues that are affecting 

23           higher education.  I'm curious if you can 

24           tell us about some of the challenges that 


                                                                   305

 1           your schools are facing on the federal level.

 2                  MS. BRABHAM:  Yes.

 3                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON:  Are we getting 

 4           funding from the feds, TRIO -- 

 5                  MS. BRABHAM:  You know, I've just 

 6           returned -- yes, I've just returned from 

 7           Washington, D.C., the day before yesterday, 

 8           on Capitol Hill, you know, lobbying quite 

 9           forcefully for something to be done about 

10           some of the cuts that are being contemplated 

11           at the federal level.  A couple of them 

12           include, you know, rolling back support for 

13           the supplemental educational opportunity 

14           programs.  Also taking money away from 

15           work-study for campuses that are subject to 

16           the endowment tax.  You know, just taking 

17           money out of Pell, which is -- of course goes 

18           to support education for our neediest 

19           students and families.  So that's what we're 

20           faced with on the federal level.

21                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON:  So all of the 

22           issues with the state budget only exacerbate 

23           that situation.  

24                  MS. BRABHAM:  Compound it.  


                                                                   306

 1           Absolutely.

 2                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON:  Thank you.

 3                  CHAIRMAN KRUEGER:  We have Senator 

 4           Murray.

 5                  SENATOR MURRAY:  Thank you, 

 6           Chairwoman.  

 7                  And thank you all for being here.  

 8                  Mr. McCartney, I want to focus on you.  

 9           The numbers you gave were staggering, by the 

10           way, of the percentages of them leaving.  

11                  But first let me say the 20-year 

12           retirement, we were talking about this and 

13           fighting for this when I was back in the 

14           Assembly years ago.  

15                  MR. McCARTNEY:  Correct.

16                  SENATOR MURRAY:  So this is far, far 

17           too long in coming.  

18                  But first I'll make a statement, then 

19           ask your input on this.  

20                  Campuses, universities, colleges, 

21           that's where you go, you know, that's where 

22           you express yourself and you have your 

23           protests and your rallies and all of this.  

24           And that's all great.  But sometimes it seems 


                                                                   307

 1           lately it's much more heated, it can at times 

 2           get violent.  That puts a lot of pressure on 

 3           the police.  

 4                  Is that a contributing factor?  Like 

 5           what is the biggest factor you see, or what 

 6           are the factors of why you're losing hundreds 

 7           of officers when only 20 percent is 

 8           retirement?  So it's not that.  So what is it 

 9           that's driving the workforce down, and is it 

10           hampering your recruitment efforts?  

11                  MR. McCARTNEY:  Yes.  We're like a 

12           specialized police unit.  We do illicit-bias 

13           training, a lot of verbal judo, de-escalation 

14           techniques, which makes us valuable to the 

15           municipalities locally.

16                  SENATOR MURRAY:   Right.  

17                  MR. McCARTNEY:  And what they do is -- 

18           we go to local police academies.  We don't go 

19           to a single police academy.  So we get -- 

20           they get to see us and recruit us while 

21           they're rookies.  And what happens is they 

22           take away our diverse officers within the 

23           first year or two years, because local 

24           agencies hire, pay more money, and then they 


                                                                   308

 1           have the 20-year retirement.  

 2                  So that's -- it kills us with 

 3           recruiting.  So those numbers show that the 

 4           state is just throwing money out.  This would 

 5           have paid for itself years ago if they would 

 6           have made the initial investment to do the 

 7           20-year retirement.  Then we'd be able to 

 8           keep our officers there.  

 9                  What also happens is people keep 

10           leaving, so you're not having people to fill 

11           the roles as supervisors going on with the 

12           experience.  So it's just a huge turnover 

13           like that.

14                  SENATOR MURRAY:  But I mean, I'm sure 

15           that's been going on for years.  But I mean, 

16           are you seeing that escalate a bit now?  Is 

17           it getting worse?  

18                  MR. McCARTNEY:  Well, right now when 

19           you have the City of Syracuse offering 

20           $20,000 hiring bonuses and they'll take our 

21           guys that work locally there, it's very hard.

22                  SENATOR MURRAY:  Well, I think the 

23           shortage altogether in law enforcement and 

24           the recruiting problems we're having is 


                                                                   309

 1           almost making it, you know -- internally you 

 2           having battles between departments, I would 

 3           imagine.  

 4                  MR. McCARTNEY:  For recruiting 

 5           purposes, yes.

 6                  SENATOR MURRAY:  Right.  

 7                  MR. McCARTNEY:  Yes.

 8                  SENATOR MURRAY:  Okay.  Well, thank 

 9           you for what you do, and we'll continue 

10           fighting for you.  

11                  MR. McCARTNEY:  Thank you.

12                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Assemblywoman 

13           Hyndman.

14                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN:  Thank you, 

15           Chair Weinstein.

16                  Good afternoon, everyone.  

17                  Even though we know enrollment is down 

18           across the country, it doesn't diminish the 

19           necessary college degree.  It doesn't 

20           discount it, discredit it, or reduce its 

21           value at all.  

22                  So in New York State education, as we 

23           know, there are many pathways.  And so even 

24           though we're still calling it Bundy Aid, the 


                                                                   310

 1           significant lack of recognition from the 

 2           Governor in the budget is really 

 3           disheartening for those students who would 

 4           have attended different institutions of 

 5           higher education other than SUNY and CUNY and 

 6           still need those pathways.  

 7                  And Donna, I know we've done a lot of 

 8           work around the APC colleges and the work 

 9           that they do and the restraints of gainful 

10           employment.  And the amount of statistics 

11           that you're able to comply immediately is 

12           very different than our public education 

13           higher education system.  

14                  So if you two could just talk a little 

15           bit more about Bundy Aid or about the lack of 

16           why TAP needs to be expanded to part-time 

17           proprietary college students.  

18                  MS. STELLING-GURNETT:  I will start 

19           and then turn it to Lola to talk about the 

20           Bundy Aid issue.  

21                  But, you know, I do think it's 

22           important to expand the Tuition Assistance 

23           Program.  Obviously utilization of the 

24           program has been going down over the last 


                                                                   311

 1           several years as it has become more and more 

 2           outdated.  And so, you know, especially the 

 3           part-time TAP piece.  

 4                  Like I said earlier, for us it is a 

 5           matter of equity.  You know, our students are 

 6           facing the same issues and challenges as the 

 7           students in the other sectors of higher 

 8           education.  It is probably one of the very 

 9           few areas where they don't have the same 

10           access.  So, you know, we find that very 

11           disheartening and appreciate your support.  

12                  We estimate it will impact about 

13           2500 students and cost approximately 

14           $5.5 million to include that in the 

15           part-time TAP.  So we ask for everyone's 

16           support, and we hope we can get that done in 

17           this legislative session.

18                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN:  Lola, before 

19           you talk, I just want to say if we 

20           listened -- if -- I don't know if you heard 

21           the chancellor earlier, but, you know, the 

22           amount of state investment that's needed for 

23           SUNY Downstate, or Fredonia, or for 

24           Potsdam -- Saint Rose did not have the state 


                                                                   312

 1           to say, Here's a couple million dollars, 

 2           let's help you out.  So that's why Bundy Aid 

 3           is so important.  

 4                  MS. BRABHAM:  Yes, that's a great 

 5           point.  And I did hear, you know, all of the 

 6           testimony and comments earlier today.  And I 

 7           heard what you just said about higher 

 8           education being an ecosystem, right, made up 

 9           of all of us and many different pathways to 

10           education.  

11                  And, you know, I just want -- I think 

12           it's important to remember that when 

13           Bundy Aid was established it was really at a 

14           time when there was significant increase into 

15           SUNY and CUNY and -- you know, and that 

16           continues today, and that's fine.  But there 

17           was a recognition on behalf of the 

18           Legislature that the private, independent 

19           colleges and universities also needed support 

20           and that it was important -- that it was an 

21           important part of the ecosystem, and they 

22           wanted to support that.  So hopefully we can 

23           get back to that.

24                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN:  Thank you.


                                                                   313

 1                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

 2                  To the Senate.  

 3                  CHAIRMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

 4                  Senator Robert Jackson.

 5                  SENATOR JACKSON:  Thank you.  

 6                  Hi, everyone.  Thank you for hanging 

 7           in here.  

 8                  So I wanted to -- Director, I wanted 

 9           to speak to you about that, the 20-year 

10           retirement.  I chair the Civil Service and 

11           Pensions Committee, and I look at some of the 

12           vetoes that the Governor vetoed this past 

13           year and she says, Get it done in the budget.  

14           But when it comes to budget, it's not getting 

15           done.  So I don't think that there's truth in 

16           what the veto says.  

17                  And, you know, we have a supermajority 

18           and you would have to override a veto like 

19           that -- you've got to make sure you have it, 

20           if in fact it's going to be done at all.  

21                  So what I ask you to do is, regarding 

22           your membership, look at the membership and 

23           families and let's organize a campaign in 

24           order to try to get it done.  I don't think 


                                                                   314

 1           that there is a willingness to attempt to 

 2           override the Governor's veto at this point in 

 3           time.  I hope that I'm wrong.  

 4                  MR. McCARTNEY:  Thank you, Senator.

 5                  SENATOR JACKSON:  And to the other 

 6           team members, you talk about Bundy Aid and 

 7           talk about TAP.  But TAP is a certain amount 

 8           of money, isn't that correct?  Do you have a 

 9           suggestion how much it should be increased, 

10           then?  

11                  MS. STELLING-GURNETT:  The maximum 

12           income threshold, is that what you're 

13           referring to?

14                  SENATOR JACKSON:  I don't really know 

15           all the details.

16                  MS. STELLING-GURNETT:  I would suggest 

17           it should be increased for dependent students 

18           up to as much as $125,000 per year.  So that 

19           would absolutely allow more moderate- and 

20           low-income families to participate in the 

21           program.

22                  SENATOR JACKSON:  I'm sorry, I don't 

23           know the particular numbers.  What is it now? 

24                  MS. STELLING-GURNETT:  Right now for 


                                                                   315

 1           dependent students it's 80,000.  For 

 2           independent students, it is just 10,000.  If 

 3           you are a single independent student, you 

 4           cannot make any more than 10,000.  If you are 

 5           married, the limit is now 40,000.

 6                  SENATOR JACKSON:  Yeah.  So in making 

 7           presentations I don't know whether or not 

 8           you're recommending a certain amount or 

 9           whether you should discuss that amongst the 

10           cohort in order to come up with a recommended 

11           amount.  

12                  MS. BRABHAM:  Senator, something 

13           that's been discussed in the past is 

14           increasing the individual -- the maximum 

15           award amount from around $5,600 up to $7,040, 

16           I think it was.

17                  SENATOR JACKSON:  Okay.  To be 

18           continued.  The struggle continues.  

19                  Thank you.

20                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

21                  We go to Assemblyman Smullen.

22                  ASSEMBLYMAN SMULLEN:  Thank you, 

23           Chair.  

24                  I've got a couple of quick questions 


                                                                   316

 1           for the Commission on Independent Colleges 

 2           and Universities and the Association of 

 3           Private Colleges.  

 4                  You know, we've heard from SUNY about 

 5           enrollment.  How is enrollment, very quickly, 

 6           at your organizations that you represent?  

 7                  MS. BRABHAM:  In the independent 

 8           sector over the past couple of years 

 9           enrollment has been down by about 3 percent. 

10                  MS. STELLING-GURNETT:  I would say 

11           there was certainly a decrease in enrollment, 

12           but we are starting to see increases and 

13           stabilization in enrollment in the 

14           proprietary sector.

15                  ASSEMBLYMAN SMULLEN:  So things are 

16           level and relatively steady?

17                  MS. BRABHAM:  Yes.

18                  ASSEMBLYMAN SMULLEN:  Of course, you 

19           could always do better.  You know, we'd hope 

20           so.

21                  MS. STELLING-GURNETT:  Yes.

22                  ASSEMBLYMAN SMULLEN:  I note that 

23           because your institutions are often, 

24           especially in the small towns and the rural 


                                                                   317

 1           areas where they are in the areas of upstate, 

 2           very important in the communities.  

 3                  Just switching gears, we talked a 

 4           little bit about universal FAFSA in the 

 5           earlier panels.  What is your impression 

 6           right now, with the federal government's 

 7           somewhat fumbling FAFSA rollout that's going 

 8           on right now, how is it affecting your 

 9           institutions?  Is there anything we at the 

10           state level could do to assist?  

11                  MS. BRABHAM:  Yes, it's having a huge 

12           impact on our institutions.  The financial 

13           aid offices can't finalize financial aid 

14           packages, get that information out to 

15           students.  And I think the worst part about 

16           it is that there's not enough communication 

17           from the Department of Education on the 

18           federal -- you know, the U.S. Department of 

19           Education, letting people know what to expect 

20           and when to expect it.  

21                  MS. STELLING-GURNETT:  I would agree 

22           with that.  We've heard that colleges won't 

23           start to receive the student data until 

24           mid-to-late March now.  So it really 


                                                                   318

 1           definitely is impacting our institutions, 

 2           it's impacting students and their ability to 

 3           make choices.  So it's been very difficult.  

 4                  And I completely agree with Lola that 

 5           there has not been enough clear communication 

 6           from the department at all.

 7                  ASSEMBLYMAN SMULLEN:  And lastly -- we 

 8           have just a little bit of time left -- how is 

 9           New York State doing in regards to when it -- 

10           or it meters, you know, federal aid to your 

11           institutions?  Is it getting there on time to 

12           be able to satisfy the students' accounts for 

13           those who are getting financial aid from 

14           either state or federal sources?  

15                  MS. BRABHAM:  I don't know if I can 

16           speak to that, but I have not heard from our 

17           campuses that that's been a problem.

18                  ASSEMBLYMAN SMULLEN:  So business as 

19           usual, I guess, is the thing.  Okay, great.  

20           Because I know it's a complicated picture, 

21           you know, financial aid.  And, you know, when 

22           students choose whatever institution they 

23           choose, it's really important that all the 

24           pieces come together.  And that's kind of 


                                                                   319

 1           some of my worries about -- you know, with 

 2           the troubles we've been having.  

 3                  But thank you both very much for your 

 4           testimony.  I appreciate it.  

 5                  MS. BRABHAM:  Thank you.  

 6                  MS. STELLING-GURNETT:  Thank you.

 7                  CHAIRMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

 8                  Senator Tom O'Mara.  

 9                  SENATOR O'MARA:  Thank you.  

10                  Director McCartney, thank you for your 

11           testimony and the work of your officers on 

12           the 20-year retirement bill.  

13                  You know, we've -- quite a few years 

14           now we've passed it nearly unanimously.  You 

15           know, as a follow-up to Senator Jackson's 

16           discussion of override, the apparent 

17           four-letter word in Albany that we can't get 

18           to.  

19                  You know, there's -- the rubber needs 

20           to meet the road somewhere.  And I understand 

21           there's one-party rule in Albany.  You want 

22           to work together.  You don't want to step on 

23           each other's toes.  But frankly -- you know, 

24           I'm the ranker on the Investigations and 


                                                                   320

 1           Government Operations Committee, and there is 

 2           next to no oversight going on from this 

 3           Legislature over the Executive.  

 4                  Very simple to override this with the 

 5           supermajority that are in place, with the way 

 6           the votes have gone for multiple years.  And 

 7           if you don't want to do it and step on the 

 8           Governor's toes, then say "Put it in the 

 9           budget or we will override it."  

10                  And this is the opportunity to do that 

11           right now, and not wait and say the same song 

12           and dance next year.  So pretty simple.  And 

13           I support that wholeheartedly.  

14                  Now, to move on to the private 

15           colleges and universities, another issue 

16           that's been bugging me is the seemingly -- in 

17           getting new programs and new curriculums 

18           approved, particularly in the healthcare 

19           area -- we've been having significant 

20           problems with Keuka College trying to get an 

21           accelerated online nursing program going.  

22                  We have a nursing shortage, I've 

23           heard.  I'm not sure if you're aware of that, 

24           but we've had it for a long time.  They've 


                                                                   321

 1           applied for this program in 2020.  We've gone 

 2           through COVID, and virtually all education 

 3           went online during that period.  This 

 4           accelerated online nursing program still is 

 5           not approved.  

 6                  And I'm not asking you to comment on 

 7           Keuka's program or anything, but it's hung up 

 8           in the State Ed Office of the Professions, 

 9           where things seemingly get hung up forever.  

10           So it's over three years now.  

11                  Do you have any recommendations on how 

12           we can put -- how we can have some 

13           accountability on this Office of Professions?  

14           Because I've got to imagine that your members 

15           are seeing this in other contexts.  

16                  MS. BRABHAM:  I think we agree.  And 

17           we are also, you know, frustrated with the 

18           time it takes with regard to program 

19           approval.  

20                  We've come to the Legislature in the 

21           last couple of budget years asking for 

22           assistance with that.  We've worked with the 

23           State Education Department to try to nail 

24           down what some potential solutions might be.  


                                                                   322

 1                  Where things stand right now, the 

 2           budget last year appropriated money for the 

 3           State Education Department.  They've told us 

 4           that they're working on an IT system solution 

 5           that's going to help provide more insight, 

 6           you know, to program approval -- 

 7                  CHAIRMAN KRUEGER:  I'm sorry.  I have 

 8           to cut you off.  

 9                  MS. BRABHAM:  And we're hoping that we 

10           will see that solution come out soon.

11                  CHAIRMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

12                  SENATOR O'MARA:  If you come up with 

13           some solutions, please pass them along.  

14                  MS. BRABHAM:  Yeah.

15                  CHAIRMAN KRUEGER:  Thanks.  

16                  I guess I'm the last Senator.  So 

17           finish the sentence.

18                  (Laughter.)

19                  MS. BRABHAM:  Well, I was just saying 

20           that there was money in the budget that was 

21           given to the State Education Department 

22           specifically for helping with this problem.  

23           They tell us that they're working on it.  I 

24           believe there's an RFP that's supposed to be 


                                                                   323

 1           coming out soon with regard to getting the 

 2           system up and running, and we're looking 

 3           forward to seeing it.

 4                  CHAIRMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

 5                  Mr. McCartney, so last night was a 

 6           long hearing, and this was like at 10 o'clock 

 7           at night, but we heard from two other 

 8           colleagues from other benevolent associations 

 9           of I think the Parks Police and the 

10           Environmental Police, with the same concerns 

11           as you have brought to us today.  

12                  And yes, many of us have been here for 

13           many years saying we should be able to 

14           resolve this.  And we don't.  

15                  I don't know whether this is 

16           sacrilegious, but why don't you all just 

17           organize and become part of the Troopers?  

18                  MR. McCARTNEY:  I can't comment on 

19           that.  

20                  (Laughter.)

21                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  I mean, there's 

22           power in numbers. 

23                  MR. McCARTNEY:  We all have our own 

24           specialized niches, from the Forest Rangers 


                                                                   324

 1           for their rescues, to the Park Police working 

 2           out in Jones Beach, Niagara Falls area, 

 3           Environmental Conservation Officers enforcing 

 4           the laws that you make, but with less 

 5           officers to do it because it's never funded 

 6           when you guys make new laws.  

 7                  So we all have specializations.  But 

 8           that's -- if that's something that you guys 

 9           want to present.

10                  CHAIRMAN KRUEGER:  Well, you know, I 

11           would actually just love to have a 

12           discussion -- obviously not now, in one 

13           minute and 20 seconds -- with the whole group 

14           of you.  Because I'm not sure how many 

15           individualized police forces we have within 

16           state government.  I know of three as we're 

17           talking.  

18                  And it just seems that sometimes you 

19           steal each other's people because they go, 

20           Maybe it's better over there.  Or maybe they 

21           say now that they've been trained they would 

22           prefer to be a State Trooper.  

23                  But I do have an understanding of 

24           power in numbers with unions.  And I'm just 


                                                                   325

 1           thinking if you're perhaps all part of one 

 2           larger union, even if you have specialty 

 3           areas and specialty skills, that maybe we 

 4           could accomplish this for the long term.  

 5                  It's just something to think about, 

 6           perhaps, rather than your commenting on it.  

 7                  MR. McCARTNEY:  Okay, thank you.

 8                  CHAIRMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

 9                  I think we're now done.

10                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  So thank you 

11           all for being with us here today, and we'll 

12           move on to our last panel.

13                  The way it's listed is NYPIRG; 

14           Fostering Youth Success Alliance; District 1 

15           Youth Advisory Board; CUNY Coalition for 

16           Students with Disabilities; Columbia 

17           University; and On Point for College.

18                  And in this group we are going to 

19           start with CUNY Coalition for Students with 

20           Disabilities, Arturo Soto.  

21                  And I know, Arturo, that you may have 

22           a train to catch or your companion may be 

23           tired of sitting and listening to us, so feel 

24           free to leave when you need to.


                                                                   326

 1                  (Off the record.)

 2                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  So, Arturo, 

 3           just --

 4                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Press the 

 5           microphone to green.  Somebody press his to 

 6           green, thank you.  Press hard.

 7                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  And just a 

 8           reminder to everybody, your remarks have 

 9           already been, as I've said before, circulated 

10           to the members, posted on at least right now 

11           the Senate's website -- I think the Assembly 

12           posts after the hearing.

13                  So please try and summarize your 

14           remarks.  Three minutes goes quicker than you 

15           think.

16                  MR. SOTO:  Chairs Stavisky, Fahy, 

17           Krueger and Weinstein, distinguished members 

18           of the New York State Legislature, my name is 

19           Arturo Soto.  I serve as secretary of the 

20           CUNY Coalition for Students with 

21           Disabilities, an advocacy group representing 

22           more than 10,000 students self-identified 

23           with disabilities at the City University of 

24           New York.


                                                                   327

 1                  I also serve as the Queens College 

 2           Committee for Disabled Students president.

 3                  In the interests of time, I am only 

 4           including some words about myself and my 

 5           experiences in my written testimony.  I have 

 6           traveled to Albany today to urge you to 

 7           include the following items in the fiscal 

 8           year '25 New York State Higher Education 

 9           Operating Budget.  

10                  First and foremost, CCSD supports 

11           CUNY's $7 million request for students with 

12           disabilities and ADA compliance.  This 

13           funding is absolutely essential for our 

14           respective campuses to provide adequate, 

15           basic accommodations for our students in 

16           accordance with the Americans with 

17           Disabilities Act.

18                  CCSD supports the proactive approach 

19           that Chancellor Matos and our university 

20           leadership have taken in support of our 

21           students.  It is our university's goal not 

22           only to remain ADA-compliant but to be a 

23           beacon for students with disabilities.  Our 

24           university has a time-honored tradition of 


                                                                   328

 1           providing innovative programs for our diverse 

 2           student population.  Many of you, like 

 3           Senator Stavisky, have championed CUNY LEADS, 

 4           our unique career and academic advisement 

 5           program, and we are more than grateful for 

 6           your continued support.

 7                  However, we now ask you to support our 

 8           university's request to address our most 

 9           basic needs.  CCSD urges the State 

10           Legislature to restore the $2 million that 

11           you included in the fiscal year '24 state 

12           operating budget for the State Education 

13           Department's statewide program for enhancing 

14           post-secondary services for students with 

15           disabilities.

16                  In addition, CCSD endorses the SED 

17           budget request to increase support for this 

18           program by $2 million in fiscal year '25.  

19           However, funding for the SED initiative 

20           should not be confused with our university's 

21           request for providing basic accommodations as 

22           required by law.  Both requests are 

23           important, but they are very different.  

24                  CCSD also supports CUNY's request for 


                                                                   329

 1           a $4 million investment in mental health 

 2           services.  And finally, please consider 

 3           including students with intellectual 

 4           disabilities in any deliberations about TAP 

 5           reform.  We urge you to pass A2341/S1880 

 6           allowing students enrolled in federally 

 7           recognized CTP programs to be eligible to 

 8           apply for TAP.

 9                  Thank you, and thank you for your 

10           time.

11                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

12                  So now we'll go to Blair Horner, 

13           NYPIRG.

14                  MR. HORNER:  Good afternoon.  My name 

15           is Blair Horner, NYPIRG's director.  NYPIRG 

16           has affiliates at the State University, the 

17           City University, and at private institutions, 

18           independent colleges across the state.

19                  Thank you for the opportunity to 

20           testify.  You have my testimony.  I'll be as 

21           brief and succinct as possible.

22                  We view higher education as a public 

23           good, for all the obvious reasons.  It cranks 

24           out the future workforce and civic leaders of 


                                                                   330

 1           tomorrow, but it also creates and maintains 

 2           jobs and stimulates the economy today.  

 3           They're economic and cultural anchors for 

 4           communities across the state, and they do so 

 5           with multiple dollars in return for every 

 6           dollar invested.

 7                  So we think of it not only as an 

 8           important cultural and education experience 

 9           for young people, but also as a way to boost 

10           the economic development of the state.  And 

11           it should be the cornerstone of economic 

12           development in the state.

13                  Yet public policy in New York has led 

14           to destabilizing that system.  And you've 

15           heard the testimony today.  When former 

16           Governor Cuomo and the Legislature agreed to 

17           decouple the maximum TAP award from what had 

18           been the informal agreement to increase it 

19           every time SUNY tuition went up, you created 

20           the TAP gap, which destabilizes the public 

21           colleges, and also hurt independent colleges 

22           as well.

23                  For decades the state has cut back on 

24           Bundy Aid.  You talked a little bit about it 


                                                                   331

 1           with the previous panel.  It was about 

 2           $125 million in the 1980s, and now the 

 3           Governor's proposing to cut it even further.

 4                  So we think that you should be 

 5           boosting state aid in public and independent 

 6           colleges, reject the Governor's cuts to 

 7           Opportunity Programs.  We agree -- and urge 

 8           you to agree -- with the Governor to freeze 

 9           tuition at public colleges and universities 

10           and to restore Bundy Aid, we would argue, 

11           back to where it should be from 30 years ago. 

12                  And we also agree to "Turn on the 

13           TAP."  The TAP program is 50 years old -- 

14           hard to believe.  Happy birthday to the TAP 

15           program.  One way to help modernize that law 

16           would be, again, to sort of follow the old 

17           way of doing it, raise the maximum award to 

18           track SUNY's tuition, expand it back to 

19           graduate students -- which used to be the 

20           case years ago.  Graduate student education 

21           is even more important than it ever was.  

22                  Raise the income level, raise the 

23           minimum TAP award, and cover some non-tuition 

24           costs.  We think there should be equity with 


                                                                   332

 1           independent institutions as well.

 2                  I have a few seconds left, so I will 

 3           not keep going, but thank you for the 

 4           opportunity to testify.  And I'll be willing 

 5           to answer any questions.

 6                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

 7                  So next, Fostering Youth Success 

 8           Alliance?

 9                  MS. NESBETH:  Good afternoon, and 

10           thank you for the opportunity to testify 

11           today.

12                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Just pull that 

13           closer to you.  Thank you.

14                  MS. NESBETH:  Okay.  Thank you for the 

15           opportunity to testify today.  My name is 

16           Deidra Nesbeth, and I'm here today on behalf 

17           of the Fostering Youth Success Alliance.  In 

18           this testimony I'm going to speak to funding 

19           for the Foster Youth College Success 

20           Initiative, or FYCSI.  

21                  FYCSI was established in the 2015-'16 

22           budget, really aiming to bridge the gap from 

23           foster care to college success.  Throughout 

24           the years we've seen an increase in young 


                                                                   333

 1           people accessing this initiative, with as 

 2           many as 1,148 students currently accessing 

 3           the initiative this year.

 4                  We've seen this number continue to 

 5           rise as accessibility becomes easier by 

 6           working in coalition with several partners, 

 7           including HESC, SUNY, CUNY, ACS, OCFS and 

 8           SED, to make sure that young people can 

 9           immediately access the consent form to access 

10           this program when they fill out the TAP 

11           application.

12                  In the current Executive Budget 

13           proposal Governor Hochul includes 

14           $7.92 million in funding for FYCSI.  We are 

15           asking for an additional $2.08 million in 

16           funding, for a total of $10 million, to make 

17           sure that all of the young people accessing 

18           this initiative can see its benefits and 

19           receive the amount of support that they do 

20           need.

21                  From one of our youth advocates, they 

22           stated that tackling college courses while 

23           aging out of foster care and finding an 

24           apartment at the same time was incredibly 


                                                                   334

 1           difficult to juggle, but having this type of 

 2           support is a life-changer.

 3                  This funding allows young people to 

 4           fulfill basic needs such as housing, books, 

 5           transportation, food, personal and medical 

 6           care, and emergency expenses.  FYCSI allows 

 7           students to have that opportunity to thrive 

 8           rather than just survive.  

 9                  In terms of FYCSI's results, we were 

10           able to work with SUNY to ask them to look 

11           through their SUNY data warehouse and get 

12           some of the outcomes for young people.  For 

13           young people we found that FYCSI recipients 

14           do have a higher retention rate than their 

15           peers with foster care experience, as well as 

16           underrepresented minority groups.  They also 

17           have higher two-year, three-year and 

18           four-year associate degree graduation rates 

19           than their peers.  And additionally, they 

20           post higher graduation rates for their 

21           bachelor's degrees when adjusted for a 

22           six-year-degree completion rate.  

23                  This is an area for more study and 

24           analysis, as there have been fewer cohorts of 


                                                                   335

 1           young people to follow through with those 

 2           programs of bachelor's degrees due to the 

 3           length of those programs.

 4                  This is really an investment in equity 

 5           for our young people, as the majority of 

 6           youth utilizing the FYCSI initiative do come 

 7           from underrepresented backgrounds.  

 8           Additionally, this makes sure young people -- 

 9           as well as older students who may want to 

10           access college -- have that option, as 

11           there's no upper age limit to FYCSI.

12                  Thank you for your time, and I'm happy 

13           to take any questions.

14                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

15                  Youth Advisory Board?

16                  MS. SISTI:  Good afternoon, honorable 

17           members of the New York State Legislature.  

18           My name is Alexandria Sisti, and I am honored 

19           to represent the District 1 Youth Advisory 

20           Board as one of its founding members.  Our 

21           organization advocates for the youth of 

22           underserved communities of Brentwood, 

23           Central Islip, and North Bay Shore on 

24           Long Island.  


                                                                   336

 1                  Today I stand before you to emphasize 

 2           the critical importance of the 

 3           Tuition Assistance Program and the 

 4           Excelsior Scholarship in shaping the 

 5           educational landscape for our students.

 6                  TAP has been a lifeline, ensuring that 

 7           each student has equitable access to higher 

 8           education in our communities where financial 

 9           barriers can be particularly daunting.  TAP 

10           has been instrumental in making college an 

11           achievable dream.  The Excelsior Scholarship 

12           has provided tuition-free access to SUNY and 

13           CUNY institutions for families earning less 

14           than $125,000 annually, and has been 

15           transformative.  It is not merely a 

16           scholarship; it is a gateway to empowerment.  

17           It levels the playing field, enabling 

18           students from all economic backgrounds to 

19           pursue higher education without the burden of 

20           crippling debt. 

21                  Expanding TAP and the Excelsior 

22           Scholarship is not just a financial decision, 

23           it is an investment in the future of our 

24           communities.  It is a recognition that talent 


                                                                   337

 1           is universal, but opportunities are often 

 2           not.  By ensuring that our students have 

 3           access to affordable education, we are not 

 4           only opening doors for individual success, 

 5           but also fostering the growth and prosperity 

 6           of our communities.  

 7                  In the Brentwood School District we 

 8           have around 17,000 students who are 

 9           economically disadvantaged.  In Central Islip 

10           we have around 5,000 students.  But don't let 

11           the word "disadvantaged" throw you off, 

12           because we are far from it.  Our communities 

13           share a similar lived experience that people 

14           outside will never understand, and that's 

15           what makes us strong.

16                  These lived experiences are exactly 

17           why this organization was formed.  Our motto 

18           at the District 1 Youth Advisory Board is 

19           "Build the Future."  By investing in youth 

20           towards a higher education, New York State is 

21           doing exactly that.  

22                  We must continue to expand the 

23           Excelsior Scholarship to its goal income 

24           limit of $150,000, the number that was laid 


                                                                   338

 1           out during the announcement of the 

 2           scholarship and was poised to be reached by 

 3           the year 2022.  This shows that we had a 

 4           realistic goal, but unfortunately the 

 5           willpower was just not there.  The cost to 

 6           implement this, according to the fiscal year 

 7           2021 Executive Budget, was $146 million.

 8                  We are also urging the Legislature to 

 9           ensure the stability of TAP by indexing TAP 

10           minimum awards to inflation.  Furthermore, 

11           New York State should lead the way in student 

12           grants by not only matching the federal Pell 

13           grant maximum, but also perhaps surpassing it 

14           for students who need it most.

15                  Being a youth leader who is soon to 

16           graduate from SUNY Albany, I have seen 

17           firsthand the difficulties me and my 

18           community face while seeking a higher 

19           education.  I am proud to say that I'm an 

20           orphan youth that comes from a family faced 

21           with financial and societal barriers.  

22           Without these higher education lifelines, 

23           college would just be a fever dream only 

24           obtained by the rich and well-off.  Without 


                                                                   339

 1           these same grants and funds, I would not be 

 2           here in front of you today.

 3                  Thank you.

 4                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

 5                  Columbia University.

 6                  DR. FERDSCHNEIDER:  Esteemed members 

 7           of the Legislature, imagine a 30-year-old 

 8           from Texas who is attending graduate school 

 9           in New York City.  Their family has never 

10           been supportive of them seeking any mental 

11           health help.  They are currently receiving 

12           medication from the psychiatrist at their 

13           Student Health Center.  They go home for 

14           their little sister's college graduation and, 

15           when they arrive in Texas, they realize that 

16           they left their medications back in their 

17           apartment in New York City.  

18                  They call Student Health to schedule 

19           an appointment with the psychiatrist but are 

20           told that since the psychiatrist is not 

21           licensed in Texas, they are unable to assist.  

22           They are advised to seek assistance locally 

23           from a provider or from an urgent care.  

24           Since the student does not want to disclose 


                                                                   340

 1           to their family that they are seeking mental 

 2           health services, they forego refilling their 

 3           medications and suffer a relapse of their 

 4           symptoms. 

 5                  One of your constituents goes out of 

 6           state to college and experiences a disruption 

 7           of their care for the same reasons.

 8                  My name is Dr. Marcy Ferdschneider, 

 9           and I am the assistant vice president -- not 

10           principal, assistant vice president -- of 

11           Student Health on Haven, the student health 

12           center on the Medical Center Campus of 

13           Columbia University in the City of New York, 

14           proudly located in Senator Jackson's 

15           district.  I am dual-board-certified in 

16           internal medicine and pediatrics.  

17                  And while these scenarios do not 

18           depict actual student cases, they are 

19           composites of many stories of many students I 

20           have encountered in my almost 25 years of 

21           working in student health.

22                  It is these stories, and countless 

23           others, that compel me to support New York 

24           State to join the Interstate Medical License 


                                                                   341

 1           Compact.  The scenarios above demonstrate how 

 2           fractured care can lead to increased costs 

 3           and overburdening of the healthcare system.  

 4           These stories, while overly simplistic, are 

 5           true-to-life situations that could be easily 

 6           resolved with the ability for medical 

 7           providers to be more easily licensed in other 

 8           states.

 9                  New York State is home to almost 

10           300 institutions of higher education whose 

11           mission is to educate the over 1 million 

12           students enrolled.  We know that physical 

13           health, mental health, and overall well-being 

14           are essential for academic success.  College 

15           health professionals are uniquely positioned 

16           to provide high-quality healthcare to 

17           students.  This means we take care to 

18           understand the developmental trajectory of 

19           the population, whether they be 

20           undergraduate, graduate or doctoral students.  

21                  We understand the world of the 

22           learner, the dynamics of the learning 

23           environment, the impacts of the social 

24           experience, and the experience of living away 


                                                                   342

 1           from home -- for many, for the first time.  

 2           For many of our student patients it is the 

 3           first time they are living on their own, 

 4           navigating their own healthcare and, in their 

 5           words, "adulting."  

 6                  All of this is hard enough for our 

 7           students, but as things stand currently they 

 8           now not only have to learn how to navigate 

 9           the outstanding healthcare system available 

10           to them in New York, but because of the 

11           transient nature of their experience they 

12           also need to have a secondary plan for when 

13           they travel away from campus.

14                  Having the Interstate Medical License 

15           Compact available to medical providers in 

16           New York State will streamline the process 

17           for our medical providers to obtain the 

18           necessary licenses so they can provide the 

19           care that their patients need when they are 

20           out of state for whatever reason.

21                  And I am running out of time, so I 

22           will end it there.  Thank you.

23                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

24                  And now On Point for College, to 


                                                                   343

 1           conclude this panel.

 2                  MR. ROWSER:  Thank you, esteemed 

 3           legislators.  Thank you for the opportunity 

 4           to talk with you about transforming lives and 

 5           communities by investing $500,000 in 

 6           New York's future workforce.

 7                  Education is an effective pathway out 

 8           of poverty.  Ninety percent of students who 

 9           earn a bachelor's degree are lifted out of 

10           poverty, according to a Pew Charitable Trust 

11           study.  

12                  Since On Point for College was founded 

13           in 1999, we've helped more than 4500 students 

14           graduate from college.  These graduates now 

15           earn more than they would have with only a 

16           high school diploma.  Over the course of 

17           their working lifetime, they will earn over 

18           $11 billion, which will be spent in their 

19           communities.  

20                  We're rising to the challenge of 

21           preparing low-income, first-generation 

22           students to contribute to the local economies 

23           in Onondaga, Madison, Cayuga, Oswego, Oneida, 

24           and Herkimer counties -- and beyond, through 


                                                                   344

 1           our partnership organizations in Manhattan 

 2           and the Bronx.

 3                  On Point provides college access, 

 4           college success and career services to help 

 5           young adults ages 17 to 29 to apply to, 

 6           enroll in, and persist at college through 

 7           graduation, while building skills and 

 8           pre-professional experiences to help launch 

 9           their careers.  We help to level the playing 

10           field for our students.  Lower-income, 

11           first-generation students face many 

12           challenges on their higher education journey.  

13           Without assistance, these challenges can turn 

14           into barriers that lead students to stop out 

15           or never attend college.  On Point helps 

16           students develop plans to address challenges 

17           before they become stumbling blocks.  We 

18           provide a broad range of services that we can 

19           tailor to meet the needs of each individual.

20                  Continuing to serve students from 

21           vulnerable backgrounds requires innovation in 

22           the years ahead.  On Point is well-positioned 

23           to address the new needs that have arisen for 

24           first-generation students as they pursue 


                                                                   345

 1           post-secondary opportunities including 

 2           college, certificates, skilled trades and 

 3           other credentials to meet workforce needs to 

 4           position themselves for well-paying careers.  

 5                  Our students bring their TAP and Pell 

 6           awards as well as their student loan dollars, 

 7           as well as last-dollar assistance grants from 

 8           On Point's generous donors, to these 

 9           campuses.  If these students had not had 

10           On Point's support, they would not have 

11           attempted to go to college at all.  These 

12           funds flow to campuses across New York State 

13           because On Point helps these students go to 

14           and remain in college.  

15                  We believe that providing $500,000 in 

16           state funding for On Point's programs will 

17           have an impact on thousands of 

18           first-generation students each year, helping 

19           people consider going to college or into a 

20           skilled trade who might otherwise think that 

21           their goals were beyond reach.  On Point will 

22           provide wraparound services to support 

23           students on every step of their journey 

24           toward their educational and career dreams.  


                                                                   346

 1                  Investment in these young people will 

 2           immediately support colleges across the state 

 3           and will bear long-term fruit.  Our graduates 

 4           will bring their degrees and our 

 5           skilled-trade professionals will bring their 

 6           skills to build the talented workforce that 

 7           New York needs.  We ask you to keep it 

 8           On Point.

 9                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

10                  We go to our Higher Ed chair, 

11           Assemblywoman Fahy.

12                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  It takes a few 

13           tries to get this microphone on.

14                  Thank you.  And we've saved an amazing 

15           panel for last, so thanks to each of you.

16                  I need to just start with a couple of 

17           comments.  Since Mr. Soto, Arturo Soto, 

18           representing the Coalition for Students with 

19           Disabilities had to leave, I just think it's 

20           important to get on the record just how 

21           profound his testimony was and what a 

22           remarkable job.

23                  And it is great to see a number of 

24           young people here, including Alexandria 


                                                                   347

 1           Sisti.  Thank you as well for the remarkable 

 2           testimony.  Just terrific.

 3                  Just a couple of quick questions.  

 4           I'll start with our foster-care folks, 

 5           Ms. Nesbeth.  You said there was 7.9 million.  

 6           And exactly how much are you asking for this 

 7           year?

 8                  MS. NESBETH:  Ten million in total.

 9                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  And how many 

10           students would that serve, or what percentage 

11           of foster-care college-age students would 

12           that serve?

13                  MS. NESBETH:  Yes, so any young person 

14           with a foster-care background, it would be 

15           able to serve them.  So right now that has 

16           been -- in this current year we anticipate 

17           that will be over 1200 young people.

18                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  Twelve hundred.  

19           Okay, thank you so much.  

20                  And then the mental health services 

21           from Columbia University, Dr. Ferdschneider, 

22           how many students roughly -- do you have any 

23           estimate of how many students may be impacted 

24           by this in-and-out-of-state matter?


                                                                   348

 1                  DR. FERDSCHNEIDER:  I actually don't 

 2           have that number offhand.  I apologize.

 3                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  Okay.  Okay.  

 4           It's an important one that you raise that we 

 5           are trying to address in other areas.  But 

 6           very important given the exponential increase 

 7           in the need for mental health services, 

 8           including among our college students.

 9                  And thanks to each of you as well for 

10           mentioning TAP.  That's very important.  

11           Mr. Horner, any comments with NYPIRG on what 

12           the most important parts of TAP are for 

13           students?  As you know, there's been a whole 

14           package to "Turn on the TAP," and thank you 

15           for using our hashtag.

16                  MR. HORNER:  You know, it's hard to 

17           say, because undergraduates are different 

18           than graduate students.

19                  So, first of all, for graduate 

20           students, having the TAP program helped them 

21           to afford to pay for going to graduate 

22           school, which obviously is most important to 

23           them.

24                  In terms of the undergraduate TAP 


                                                                   349

 1           program, I mean, there's two -- again, 

 2           there's two ways to look at it.  One is from 

 3           the institutional perspective, because 

 4           enrollment is really where the action is with 

 5           regard to a college's financial stability.  

 6           So raising the max TAP award to match SUNY 

 7           tuition helps across the board, both public 

 8           and independent colleges.

 9                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  Thank you.

10                  MR. HORNER:  So I would think 

11           expanding the income level would be number --

12                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  Okay, thank you.  

13           Appreciate the support on that.  

14                  And the last speaker as well as my 

15           last question, for On Point.  Assemblymember 

16           Stirpe sent his regards.

17                  MR. ROWSER:  Thank you.

18                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  And, Mr. Rowser, 

19           thank you for this.  We would love to see one 

20           in Albany, I have to say, or in the 

21           Capital Region.

22                  But what is making the difference, and 

23           how was the program created?  Sorry, in six 

24           seconds.


                                                                   350

 1                  MR. ROWSER:  It was created -- it will 

 2           be 25 years old this year, and it was because 

 3           of the passion of helping young people 

 4           transition from where they are to where they 

 5           want to be.  And we've expanded in the last 

 6           year into six additional city school 

 7           districts in three different counties.

 8                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

 9                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  Thank you.  Very 

10           impressive.  

11                  Thank you, Chair.

12                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

13                  To the Senate.

14                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

15                  Senate Chair Toby Stavisky.

16                  SENATOR STAVISKY:  I finally mastered 

17           the microphone.

18                  (Laughter.)

19                  SENATOR STAVISKY:  First, to the 

20           panel, I thank you all for coming.  And I 

21           thank Blair Horner for his testimony.  

22                  And to Arturo, who left -- but that is 

23           a wonderful organization based out of CUNY, 

24           but particularly at Queens College, the CUNY 


                                                                   351

 1           Committee for Students with Disabilities.  

 2           And I always object to the name, because I 

 3           think it's really students with abilities, 

 4           not disabilities.  

 5                  And they have been led, over the 

 6           years -- Steve Kleinberg was here with him, 

 7           and Steve and Charmaine Townsell, they have 

 8           been the leaders of this group, and they've 

 9           done so much for so many of the students.

10                  And to really to everybody, we thank 

11           you for your patience.

12                  I said I'd be brief.

13                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  So we go to 

14           Assemblyman Smullen.

15                  ASSEMBLYMAN SMULLEN:  Yeah, thank you, 

16           Chair.  I'll pick up where Chair Fahy left 

17           off with On Point.

18                  I had a couple of questions regarding 

19           to the -- how many people have you served, 

20           say, last year?  And how did you adjust 

21           during the pandemic?  I know it was a very 

22           tumultuous, chaotic period for an 

23           organization such as yours.

24                  MR. ROWSER:  So during the pandemic, 


                                                                   352

 1           like many, we went virtual.  And we did a lot 

 2           of our work virtually.  We still had to do 

 3           some in-person stuff, so we masked up, got 

 4           the sanitizer, and we loaded students up and 

 5           we drove them around the state to the various 

 6           colleges that they go to.  Because part of 

 7           what we do is provide transportation to any 

 8           student within five hours of Central 

 9           New York to where they want to go.

10                  Each year we bring in between 300 and 

11           500 new students into the system.  We have 

12           anywhere between 1700 and 2500 that are 

13           always in school at any given time.  

14                  And then our third pillar, career 

15           services, which we -- is where we do our 

16           workforce, is working with anywhere up 

17           towards 600 students each year, to help them 

18           transition.

19                  ASSEMBLYMAN SMULLEN:  And you said 

20           during the pandemic you did some of it 

21           online.  Would you be able to do more of that 

22           with, say, rural students?  You know, if you 

23           got a kid that's out in a rural area but 

24           really needs your knowledge and your 


                                                                   353

 1           experience and your wisdom, would you be able 

 2           to service students like that in a broader 

 3           area?

 4                  MR. ROWSER:  It would be, if they had 

 5           broadband or if they had an internet 

 6           connection.

 7                  So we actually are in the rural 

 8           communities now.  We're in Oswego County and 

 9           we're in six school districts in Oswego 

10           County.  So we actually go to them to provide 

11           those services.

12                  One of the things we did last year is 

13           we were the first organization -- probably 

14           the only organization to take a group of 

15           young people to Manassas, Virginia, to the 

16           Micron plant.  And we pulled those students 

17           out of Oswego County or Onondaga County, 

18           Oneida County, and put them on a bus to go 

19           down there.  So we're going to them, because 

20           they don't have internet connections in those 

21           rural communities and so you have to go to 

22           them.

23                  ASSEMBLYMAN SMULLEN:  Well, we 

24           appreciate you meeting people where they need 


                                                                   354

 1           to be met in order to, you know, to get them 

 2           through this transition from the K-12 system 

 3           into the college system, for a variety of 

 4           different things.

 5                  The funding that you have, is it 

 6           adequate, what you're getting from the state?  

 7           I know you have a variety of funding sources.  

 8           Could you please quickly explain that?

 9                  MR. ROWSER:  Well, we do have a 

10           smorgasbord of funding.  We get it from a 

11           variety of places.  Because of our expansion, 

12           someone will help us with our access piece, 

13           we need help with the success piece.  So 

14           getting them in is one thing, but now we've 

15           got to pay to keep them in.  And that's the 

16           part that we need help from the state.  We've 

17           got co-serve agreements to get them in, 

18           between BOCES and the school districts, so 

19           now we need state funding to help them stay 

20           in.  And that's where our shortfall is.

21                  ASSEMBLYMAN SMULLEN:  I really want to 

22           commend you for all that you do for these 

23           kids to get through this transition, 

24           especially in a very complicated thing where 


                                                                   355

 1           you're almost standing in loco parentis in 

 2           many ways for them.  

 3                  And it's really special.  Glad that 

 4           you're in part of my district.  And I urge 

 5           all my colleagues to fully support it.

 6                  Thank you.

 7                  MR. ROWSER:  Thank you.

 8                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Senate.

 9                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

10                  Senator Murray.

11                  SENATOR MURRAY:  Thank you, 

12           Chairwoman.

13                  Thank you all for being here and for 

14           your patience in sticking it out.

15                  Just want to pose something.  We've 

16           heard all afternoon about the importance of 

17           increasing the threshold for TAP, and I agree 

18           a hundred percent.  But I'd like to get your 

19           thoughts because, Ms. Sisti, you had 

20           mentioned rate of inflation, indexing it to 

21           the rate.

22                  Would it be fairer if we simply set 

23           the base, took the 10 regional economic 

24           development regions, took the 10 regions and 


                                                                   356

 1           base it, the threshold, on the regional -- a 

 2           percentage of the regional median income?  

 3           For example, right now the 80,000 threshold 

 4           in parts of upstate may not be too bad, 

 5           whereas on Long Island it's ridiculous.

 6                  Wouldn't it be fairer, what would your 

 7           thoughts be to basing it on a percentage of 

 8           the regional median income?

 9                  MS. SISTI:  I'm going to answer this 

10           question to the best of my ability.  

11                  But I think that's a very tricky 

12           slope.  Because like you were saying, 

13           obviously if you are living on Long Island, 

14           things like taxes are a lot higher, just the 

15           cost of living has skyrocketed, even in 

16           low-income communities like Brentwood.  So I 

17           think that to have it be like a margin as -- 

18           and a total like an average, I just think 

19           that could be a little tricky and that may be 

20           unfair for people from where they pay higher 

21           property taxes or higher cost of living.

22                  I just think it's like a little bit of 

23           a tricky slope.

24                  SENATOR MURRAY:  I think maybe you're 


                                                                   357

 1           missing the point, in that it would be 

 2           10 different regions based on that region's 

 3           median income.  So Long Island would have a 

 4           higher threshold, whereas maybe upstate would 

 5           have a lower threshold because their cost of 

 6           living is much lower.  To make it fair.

 7                  MS. SISTI:  Thank you for rephrasing 

 8           the question.  

 9                  I think I agree with you that it would 

10           be fairer.  I think, you know, coming from a 

11           background where I am an orphan, I am 

12           actually a part of this foster-youth program 

13           at my college where I pay for college 

14           completely on my own, a zero-income 

15           independent student.  So I think that if 

16           people base it off of Long Island's, you 

17           know, income tax and all of those things, it 

18           would be helpful.

19                  MR. HORNER:  Just to mention one other 

20           thing.  It's a little -- it makes it more 

21           complicated.  And so if you're a senior at 

22           SUNY Oswego and you live there 12 months out 

23           of the year, how does that count?

24                  SENATOR MURRAY:  Good point.


                                                                   358

 1                  MR. HORNER:  And so, you know -- I 

 2           mean the system's already ridiculously 

 3           complicated.  And so I think -- I applaud the 

 4           sort of the notion, because at some point you 

 5           have to pay for all of this.  But the 

 6           inflation adjustment would be helpful too.

 7                  SENATOR MURRAY:  Anyone else?

 8                  Okay.  Well, thank you very much.

 9                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

10                  We go to Assemblywoman Hyndman.

11                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN:  Thank you.

12                  I don't think a joint public hearing 

13           for higher ed would be complete without 

14           On Point.

15                  (Laughter.)

16                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN:  I think as 

17           long as I've been here, you've been here.

18                  So you have a $500,000 ask in this 

19           year's budget.  Have you been receiving, 

20           every time you've testified, the requested 

21           amount?  I'm just curious.

22                  MR. ROWSER:  Never.

23                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN:  No?

24                  MR. ROWSER:  I've never received a 


                                                                   359

 1           requested amount.

 2                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN:  Oh.  Always 

 3           less.

 4                  MR. ROWSER:  Much less.

 5                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN:  Always less, 

 6           okay.  Thank you.

 7                  MR. ROWSER:  But we keep hope alive.

 8                  (Laughter.)

 9                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN:  I'm in Queens, 

10           but my colleagues in -- Assemblymember Hunter 

11           speaks very highly of the program and its 

12           effectiveness.  So thank you.

13                  And thank you all for your testimony.

14                  Thank you.

15                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Senator Robert 

16           Jackson.

17                  SENATOR JACKSON:  So you said a lot 

18           less.  But are you receiving money from the 

19           Senate or the Assembly?  If you know.

20                  MR. ROWSER:  They both tell me they 

21           all gave me the 200 that we get.  We get 200 

22           the last couple of years.  Three years ago I 

23           think we got 400, but the last two years we 

24           got two.  Both say they did it.


                                                                   360

 1                  SENATOR JACKSON:  Okay, that -- I like 

 2           that.  Teamwork makes the dream work, right?

 3                  MR. ROWSER:  That's what they say.  

 4           That's what they say.

 5                  SENATOR JACKSON:  And what about the 

 6           organizations that you're affiliated with in 

 7           Manhattan and the Bronx?

 8                  MR. ROWSER:  Goddard Riverside, the 

 9           options program.  What we do is any of our 

10           students that come downstate to school, they 

11           will go to the campuses and visit them.  Any 

12           of their students that come upstate to 

13           school, we will visit their students and 

14           check on them.

15                  Because of our relationship with 

16           Goddard and New Settlement in the Bronx, any 

17           of their students that go to Syracuse 

18           University will have their tuition waived.  

19           That's one of the agreements we have with 

20           Syracuse University as an On Point for 

21           College program, and our program affiliates 

22           get the same benefit.

23                  SENATOR JACKSON:  Union Settlement, is 

24           that based in Manhattan on 104th Street?


                                                                   361

 1                  MR. ROWSER:  New Settlement is in the 

 2           Bronx.  On Walton Street.  I think it's on 

 3           Walton Street is where their office is.

 4                  SENATOR JACKSON:  Okay.  And as far as 

 5           the young woman, as far as the scholarship, I 

 6           think that I'm so happy for you because 

 7           you're getting a good education and you're 

 8           going to be part of -- right now you're part 

 9           of the leadership of leading the way, which 

10           is very, very important.

11                  MS. SISTI:  Thank you.

12                  SENATOR JACKSON:  And as far as 

13           fostering youth success, we have to help all 

14           that we can.  In my involvement in education, 

15           it doesn't matter who you are, whether you're 

16           Black, white, Asian, rich, poor -- it doesn't 

17           matter.  We're trying to get all of you a 

18           good education so you can be our future 

19           leaders of our great state.  So please keep 

20           up the work that you're doing.  I'm proud of 

21           all of you.  

22                  (Inaudible exchange.)

23                  SENATOR JACKSON:  All the time.  Like 

24           me, right?


                                                                   362

 1                  (Laughter.)

 2                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

 3                  To close out this hearing, a question 

 4           by Assemblymember Eachus.

 5                  ASSEMBLYMAN EACHUS:  Thank you, Chair.

 6                  We have two chairs with patience like 

 7           angels.  And I thank them for that.

 8                  Thank you all for what you do.  I 

 9           really, really thank you.  I thank you for 

10           being here and all.

11                  But I just want to point out, Marcy, 

12           my family has been personally affected by 

13           exactly what you're talking about.  It is my 

14           hope -- I am Assemblymember Chris Eachus -- 

15           that you contact my office and we can be sure 

16           that you get the proper support that you 

17           need.

18                  DR. FERDSCHNEIDER:  Thank you so much, 

19           sir.

20                  ASSEMBLYMAN EACHUS:  Sure.

21                  Deidra, thank you.  Having had 

22           13 foster brothers and sisters myself, they 

23           can have a very traumatic life as they grow 

24           up, and they need all the support that we can 


                                                                   363

 1           give them.  So congratulations and thank you 

 2           very much for that.

 3                  And then, finally, Alexandria.  Were 

 4           you here when we were talking to Dr. Linares 

 5           from HESC?

 6                  MS. SISTI:  Yes.

 7                  ASSEMBLYMAN EACHUS:  Yeah.  I was 

 8           making some statements from my personal 

 9           experience of being in high school.  You're 

10           not that far away from high school, 

11           especially compared to most of us here.

12                  Would you agree that the NY FAFSA 

13           READY program really needs more promotion 

14           than what it's getting?  When you talk about 

15           disadvantaged students, you're right, it 

16           doesn't necessarily mean that they're poor or 

17           anything else like that, but they're 

18           generally not connected with school the way 

19           better students are.  And we need to really 

20           get to them to fill out the FAFSA form to go 

21           to the next step with your TAP and Excelsior 

22           and so on like that.

23                  MS. SISTI:  Yes, I would have to agree 

24           with you that it is a very important program 


                                                                   364

 1           and it definitely needs to be put in the 

 2           forefront to high schoolers.  

 3                  Children at my high school -- I know a 

 4           lot of the times college -- they wouldn't 

 5           even think about it because just the idea of 

 6           filling out the form for FAFSA was terrifying 

 7           to them.  You know, a lot of people that are 

 8           in my town are undocumented immigrants and 

 9           their parents may not speak English, so it's 

10           up to them, at 17 years old, to figure out 

11           how to fill out FAFSA completely on their 

12           own.  And that's not okay, and that's not 

13           fair.  You know?  

14                  I'm lucky enough to have an aunt that 

15           helps me along the way, but that wouldn't 

16           have been unless her daughter went to college 

17           before me.  I think that FAFSA is very 

18           confusing, it's a very confusing form to fill 

19           out.  I have friends that tell me all the 

20           time, they're like, I get no money but it's 

21           because I don't know how to fill it out 

22           properly, so I'll just pay for college out of 

23           pocket and be in debt for the rest of my 

24           life.


                                                                   365

 1                  And nobody should have to do that to 

 2           achieve a higher education to get to where 

 3           they want to be in this world.

 4                  ASSEMBLYMAN EACHUS:  And I put that 

 5           responsibility on me, and hopefully my other 

 6           fellow legislators accept the same thing.

 7                  Thank you very much.

 8                  MS. SISTI:  Thank you.

 9                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

10                  We actually have one more questioner 

11           from Assemblywoman Jo Anne Simon.

12                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON:  Thank you.  And 

13           thank you to all of you for your really 

14           excellent testimony.

15                  And, you know, I just want to endorse 

16           Assemblymember Fahy's comments about 

17           Mr. Soto's testimony as well as yours, you 

18           know, working with foster students.  So few 

19           foster students are able to be successful in 

20           college, and it really is an incredible area 

21           that we need to focus on.  

22                  And thank you, Alexandria for your 

23           work as well.

24                  You know, one of the issues with FAFSA 


                                                                   366

 1           of course is reading levels, is familiarity.  

 2           It's also disability accommodations on the 

 3           filling out of that FAFSA form, which needs 

 4           to improve.

 5                  But I have a question for Mr. Rowser.

 6                  MR. ROWSER:  Yes.

 7                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON:  And that is your 

 8           program strikes me as having a lot of 

 9           similarities with some of the TRIO programs, 

10           the Upward Bound and also students' special 

11           services.  Is that something that you guys 

12           have thought about, or would you have access 

13           to such -- that type of federal funding as 

14           well?

15                  MR. ROWSER:  We have not had access to 

16           that kind of federal funding in the past.  We 

17           do work with many of the TRIO programs.  

18                  A little bit different in what we 

19           do -- and I just heard the young lady talk 

20           about FAFSA -- is we do FAFSA completion 

21           programs.  We go around the city to all the 

22           high schools in the communities.  We provide 

23           transportation -- some of the things that the 

24           TRIO programs don't do, On Point does.  


                                                                   367

 1                  You know, if a student has a toothache 

 2           and they need dental care, we have dentists 

 3           who do pro bono work, so we go pick them up, 

 4           bring them home, fix their teeth and take 

 5           them back.  So just, you know, a little bit 

 6           more.  But we have not had access to TRIO 

 7           funding.  We tried.

 8                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON:  I used to run a 

 9           TRIO program, so I always think about those 

10           programs.  And if there's a way that you 

11           could maybe, you know, take advantage of 

12           them, if they can be helpful to you or not -- 

13           I don't know if it's true or not.

14                  MR. ROWSER:  We've got about 

15           98 percent, we haven't got higher when we 

16           applied.  We're working on it, though.

17                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON:  Keep doing the 

18           great work you're doing.  It's really 

19           impressive.  Thank you.

20                  MR. ROWSER:  We need On Point 

21           everywhere.

22                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

23                  So with that, we conclude the -- first 

24           I just want to thank the panel for being 


                                                                   368

 1           here, colleagues for being here.

 2                  So with that, we conclude the 

 3           Higher Ed hearing, joint budget hearing for 

 4           today.  Our next joint budget hearing will be 

 5           on Tuesday the 13th.  Starting at 9:30, we 

 6           will be addressing the Governor's mental 

 7           health budget.

 8                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you, 

 9           everyone.

10                  (Whereupon, at 3:37 p.m., the budget 

11           hearing concluded.)

12  

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24